R.G. Wilson-Lyons

Rev. Todd Maberry:

Welcome to the Divcast, the podcast that gives you an inside look into the Duke Divinity School community. I'm Todd Maberry, your host for this episode, as well as the 2006 M.Div. grad and current senior director of admissions recruitment and student finance. This podcast is a part of a series featuring alumni. Today, I have the privilege of connecting with Reverend R.G. Wilson-Lyons, who is a 2006 graduate of Duke Divinity School. R.G. is a church planter, pastor consultant, and storyteller who has experience and expertise and community development, community organizing, starting house churches, fundraising, building partnerships, and anti-racism work coming next is my conversation with R.G.

R.G., I'm grateful that you are willing to have this conversation with me.

 

Rev. R.G. Wilson-Lyons:

Yeah, thank you. I'm looking forward to it.

 

TM:

You and I have known each other for many years. We actually came into Duke together and we're a part of a group of friends that quickly came together and it was a group that prayed and supported one another. We studied together. We also played a lot together, including sports. I want to give a shout out to the 2005 graduate dodgeball champions championship team that you and I were a part of back in the day. So I've known him for a while and our connection is Duke, but I don't think I know the story of how you ended up at Duke. So, how did you come to Duke? Why'd you decide to be a student there and who were some of the people that helped you get here?

 

RGWL:

Yeah, sure. So there's, I guess several different answers to that question. One, my campus minister at my undergrad, which was Samford University in Birmingham, Alabama, April Robinson, she and I were really close and she was a pretty important mentor for me and she was a Duke graduate. And so, for really any of us who were pursuing theological education beyond college, April strongly recommended Duke and I at least took that recommendation really seriously. Also, when I was in college in Birmingham, probably some of the most formative experiences I had both in the classroom, but also in the city revolved around Birmingham's history of the civil rights movement.

And as I became more and more aware of that history, I became aware of similar movements in other parts of the world. One very similar was the anti-apartheid movement in South Africa. And as I read and became more familiar with that work and that movement, I read about Peter Storey and realized that he was teaching one semester out of the year at Duke. And I thought this is exactly the kind of person I want to learn from. So that was kind of one of the main reasons that I wanted to get to Duke was because Peter Storey was there and the connection and relationship with the Methodist Church of Southern Africa, and the opportunities to not only read and learn about the church's role in the anti-apartheid struggle, but to actually go to South and meet people who were a part of that, learn from them and see how the church was navigating the aftermath of apartheid, dealing with things like reconciliation, but also what reconciliation with justice looks like.

And so, I was really hoping to have a chance to really take advantage of divinities relationship with the Methodist Church in South Africa. So that was another, the third reason is when I did my campus visit, I just got a sense that there was this really close community. It just felt like an easy place to make friends. And I found that to be true. You were laughing kind of about how long we've known each other. As some of my best memories is when we would get together, what was it like? Two mornings a week at 7:00 AM to play basketball or something?

Not always the highest level of play, but it was, I think really that was like one of the reasons why our group of friends became so close to each other as we were kind of had that thing that we got to do for fun together several mornings a week. And then kind of the last reason that as I sort of have jokingly, but not is that is related to basketball. I've always been a huge fan. And the idea of going to a seminary where I could also watch Duke basketball games. I mean, I won't lie. That was a pretty big draw for me as well.

 

TM:

That's a big draw for a lot of people, and other people could care less. After you graduated from Duke, you went back to Alabama. That's your home and you planted a church community, church without walls in Birmingham. You planted the church in essentially what was one of the financially poorest neighborhoods in Alabama. I wonder if you could just share a little bit about what led you to want to do that? How did the doors open up for you to plant that church?

 

RGWL:

When I was in college, I joined a United Methodist church called Church of the Reconciler, which was in downtown Birmingham. And about half of that congregation were individuals experiencing homelessness. And through that experience and through a kind of closer reading of the New Testament, particularly the Gospels, I became convinced that the central theme of the Gospel is good news to the poor, and began to feel more and more that I was called to in some way or shape to do a ministry that was similar to what I experienced in church. So, the reconciler. And so, I started sharing that with my district superintendent, my Bishop, and kind of was thinking, that's the kind of work I need to be doing. I'm not sure if that means I'm going to be a pastor or do something in the non-profit world or what, but kind of fast forward a few years.

Will Willimon who had been the Dean of the Chapel at Duke was elected Bishop and became my Bishop in North Alabama and Will is sort of known for kind of having ideas that, depending on perspective, are either like visionary or ridiculously crazy. And sometimes the line between those two is kind of blurred. And so, one of Will's ideas was let's ask this 24 year old kid, who's never pastored a church before to start a new congregation in the neighborhood with the lowest median income in the state of Alabama, because he's passionate about it. And so, that's kind of how it happened. There'd been... The neighborhood was called West End, there'd been a United Methodist social service agency in that community for close to 25 years that did really good work. They had a soup kitchen, afterschool tutoring program. They painted homes for seniors in the community and things like that.

And so, the idea was to start a worshiping congregation out of that. So it would have been... I think it would have been impossible to just kind of go in and just start something with nothing there, but being connected to urban ministry, the nonprofit really was just one, an incredibly fun experience because I got to work with some really cool and amazing people. I got to meet the community leaders who were also very connected with urban ministry and more than anything, I got to know a group of kids who are a part of our ministry it's afterschool program, who for whatever reason, just started showing up to every church event we had. So kind of my plan going in is, I'll get to know some adults we'll have. A church planting launch team that would get together, and we'll make these plans, and then we'll launch and have a worship service.

And then, we'll do a youth ministry and things like that. And the people who actually came or young people in the neighborhood. And for most of my time there, we had probably twice as many youth as we did adults. And the people who ended up becoming leaders in that church to a large degree were actually people who grew up in the church. It was almost like a generation of kids grew into leadership roles. So like today in that congregation, the youth pastor of that church was one of my youth who came to the church just for some of the activities that we had going on. And I guess kind of when I think back on that time, I was there for 10 years is sort of the overarching, I guess, feeling I have about that time is just incredible gratitude for how kind and hospitable the people of West End were to me. There was literally no reason they should have trusted me to be a pastor in that community.

And they did. My first day, I moved into the neighborhood. I had a guy who lived in an abandoned house, come and bring a house warming gift that he had gotten at a local food pantry to sort of stock my refrigerator and my pantry. And then later that day, there was a single mom with a special needs daughter who walked because they didn't have a car. They lived about a half a mile away to bring me dinner that night. And I come, and I think about how different that experience would be if you had, say for instance, a young 24 year old African-American pastor trying to start a church in a white neighborhood. And I'm guessing that person would not have experienced anything remotely close to the same hospitality I experienced in this black neighborhood as a 24 year old white person. And so, kind of the biggest takeaway I have is not really anything special that I did, but just how incredibly kind and gracious, and hospitable that community was to me.

 

TM:

Wow. Thanks for sharing that. And I'm wondering if you could maybe share a few other stories of transformation that you witnessed in that community or the ways of what you saw God work.

 

RGWL:

Yeah. So I think there's this assumption of low income communities, particularly low income urban communities, that the problems there are related to people within the community. There's high rates of crime or there's high rates of addiction, or things like that. My experience is nothing could be further from the truth. So, probably our most important leader during my time, there was a woman named Ms. Ernestine, but everyone in the neighborhood called her mom. And she, in addition to her own kids, she had raised 18 foster kids that she had legal custody of, and no telling how many more, who just kind of showed up at our house when they didn't have anywhere else to go. And so, she actually came to the church because her special needs grandson started coming to the church with their neighbor, and eventually fell in love with the church.

And so, he brought Ernestine. And so our understanding comes and she sees kind of like at this point we were having house church in my living room. And so Ernestine sees, I don't know, seven or eight adults sitting around in a circle trying to have a conversation about something theological with about 15 kids, basically acting a fool. And so, then Ernestine just decides that she could take it on herself to just kind of mentor those kids, or kind of take on in essence, the children's ministry. And it was really funny. Our conference at one point did a video about Church Without Walls, and they interviewed Ernestine. And one of the questions they ask was why did you come to Church Without Walls? And her answer was, "Well, I felt sorry for R.G. is one."

But, one of the things that we were doing is we had a partnership with a Catholic college preparatory high school for low-income students. It was a Cristo Rey school that originated out of Chicago, but the Cristo Rey network had as a mission, that every student who went through them would be accepted into colleges across the country. They had a 95% success rate of that. And so we felt like that was a really, really great opportunity for a number of our youth. And a lot of parents agreed. And so, we raised money to cover the tuition for them to go there. And the only issue was that there was no school bus service. And so, the school was about two miles from our neighborhood. And most of the kids that we had going there, didn't have a car in the family.

And so, we started using our church van to take the kids to school. And so I just thought Ernestine would be a tremendous role model for these kids. I asked her if she would be willing to drive the van to take them and pick them up, that we could raise a little money and pay her a little something to do it. And so, she was very happy to do that. And she had been doing that for like two days, and she called me and said, "Hey, we've got to put some more gas in the van." “And I was like, "Well, Ernestine, school is two miles away. You've literally put 10 miles on the van. Why do you need more gas?” And it turns out that in the 48 hours she'd had the van, she had organized this entire ministry of taking people to jobs, taking other people to GED programs, taking seniors to doctor's appointments, taking other seniors to buy groceries when they didn't have a way to get there.

And she had since created a bus route with our church van, and then she tells me, "I've already got appointments for tomorrow, so you need to get me my gas right now." And, kind of what I think of when I think of that story is that I didn't know what the community needed, but Ernestine did. And so many people in communities like West End know exactly what their community needs. It's not a matter of not having the skills, the knowledge and the expertise. It's a matter of not having the resources and systemic injustice. And I think what I found is that once people had access, even to just a tiny bit of resources, right? We're not even talking about justice, we're talking about just the tiny resources that charity can provide. They do exactly what needs to be done.

 

TM:

Along those lines, maybe quickly mentioned the West End community garden and what you saw come out of that.

 

 

RGWL:

Yeah. So we started a community garden, I guess it had been there about 18 months or so. And in some ways, it's a kind of similar story to Ernestine. There was this vacant lot, just one block from the urban ministry building that was overgrown. And the West End had a lot of problems with absentee landlords who let properties just deteriorate at problems with lack of access to healthy food. There was tons of corner stores and quick marts, but there was not a grocery store in the community. And so, we thought maybe we can address two of those issues at the same time by kind of buying up some abandoned lots and beautifying them. And then also growing really good food on there. And so we talked to the neighborhood association and they were excited about doing it in partnership with us.

And so we bought the lot and some members from the church along with me, some people from the neighborhood association started clearing the lot, except none of us had any experience gardening. And so, the first time we planted the garden, not a single seed came up. And so, we had a donor pay to like bring in like a big tractor with a lot of fertilizer that we covered the ground with and we planted it again and it came up that time, but it was like...I mean, we may be had, I don't know, enough food that actually produced to maybe provide two people with some vegetables. It was just the most ridiculous thing ever. And so Keith Aaron was in the neighborhood association. And so, he called me up one day and said, "There's somebody in the neighborhood you need to meet.

"She's a chef. I think she would really like the garden and would probably do some cooking classes for you." And so, Ama Shambulia was her name. And so, we set up a time for her to come out to the garden and she and I were talking and it turns out that Ama, she lived right there in West End. She had actually moved to Alabama from California, I guess, about a decade or so ago. And she was a professional chef by trade, but she was doing personal chef work for some really wealthy families in one of the suburbs. And it just so happened that Ama was really looking to try to start her own nonprofit around food, healthy eating community, building, things like that. And, so it was kind of like this situation where she had all the skills that community garden director needs that we needed, but she didn't have the framework, and we had the framework, but no skills.

And so by the end of that conversation, instead of talking to Ama about cooking classes, Ama had agreed to take on the job of West End community garden director. And what's amazing about that is we didn't have any money to pay her. And so, she really took this huge leap of faith. She quit her other work and did that job as a volunteer for like two months before we got a grant to pay her. And then, that garden grew to from one lot to five lots. And it ended up employing a number of young adults in them, in the community, kind of through this internship initiative, but also as a way to develop life skills.

And then kind of Ama's grand vision was to have a pay as you can café that would come out of that. And so, that kind of helped urban ministry transition away from a soup kitchen to a pay as you can café that the idea that one, the food was going to be as high quality as any restaurant in the city. It was going to be healthy food, food from the garden, but also this idea that everybody has something to offer. For some people that might mean paying 15 bucks for lunch, for other people it might be, "I don't have any money, but I can stay around and wipe down the tables," or things like that.

 

TM:

That's wonderful. And pretty consistent themes there of giving resources and opportunities to people, and allowing them to flourish. And it seems like that's a big part of the work that your church was doing, which I think is a work of the kingdom of God. As you mentioned, you were pastor of that church for about 10 years. You've shared with me before that, that one of the most things you're most proud of in your ministry is that you were able to start this church, but then empower leadership and then transition out. I think that's the true mark of leadership, that a ministry continues beyond the personality of a pastor. So, I know that community is proud of you, and you were a pastor for a while at Birmingham First United Methodist Church, but you've recently hit a hard reset in your life. I'm wondering if you could share with me about your life now, like what's your ministry look like now and maybe talk about Story Formed.

 

RGWL:

Yeah. So when I left Church Without Walls, I was an associate pastor at Birmingham First, which is a downtown congregation for four years. And then my wife Mary Page, who also has an M.Div. hers, is from Emory. And she for a number of years has felt kind of called to the more academic route. And so she was accepted into Boston School of Theology's Ph.D. program for practical theology. And so we were going to be relocating moving up to Boston and it kind of...when we first found out about this, I started trying to reach out to some United Methodist congregations up here and found out that there is a struggle for them to find appointments for the people currently in their conference. And they weren't really looking for people to come in from the outside, which was completely understandable.

And so, I kind of started...now, I'm more of a traditional kind of job search, in the nonprofit world and things like that. When this global pandemic hit and there was just so much uncertainty, and Mary Page and I decided that the best thing for our family and especially the best thing for our children was for me to do something with enough flexibility to basically be a stay-at-home dad. We have an eight year old and a two year old, and we didn't know kind of what the situation will be with schools or with childcare or things like that.

And so, I kind of started looking for ways to be able to continue offering something along the lines of pastoring kinds of things that I could do with staying at home. And one of the things that I kind of landed on was to be able to offer kind of theological content things that are kind of reflections on some of my experiences from my time at Church Without Walls, but also kind of reflections around what it means to be a Christian who is committed to racial justice, what it means to be a Christian who is committed to inclusion and affirmation for everyone, and those types of things.

And so I launched a ... It's called Patreon. It's kind of this online subscription service where basically people subscribe like you would to the Christian Century or Netflix or whatever, whenever you can think of that, you subscribe to. And kind of the way I wanted to set it up is that basically you pay whatever you can. And so, for some people, I have some people who pay $40 a month to receive this. And some people pay as little as $1 a month, but I think that's consistent with my theology, that it's not about how much someone has to pay, but rather we each have something to offer based on what we can offer that I never wanted. Anything that I produce from a theological standpoint to be something that someone else couldn't afford. So I'm kind of offering a...it's kind of a work in progress, but I'm offering kind of reflections on the lectionary reflections on current events.

I try to put out two or three things a week that I put out kind of in a written format or a sort of a very low tech podcast format, which by that I basically mean an audio recording of me talking that people so people can either read it or listen to it. And I've really enjoyed it. It's kind of in essence, the work of similar to preaching, similar to kind of teaching without kind of the pastoral side of being a pastor, which I love that part of it. I love the pastoral work, but for right now kind of our station in life, this allows me to continue doing at least part of the work that I love while doing what I feel like I need to do for my family right now.

TM:

Yeah. And I wanted to talk to you specifically about this because I think what you're doing is something that we'll see increasingly more and more in this digital age. And to give you a shout out, your website is www.story-formed.com. Full disclosure here too. I'm one of your patrons. And, what I really appreciate about it is just getting your insights. I would love to talk to you 30 to 60 minutes every week, and hear what you're thinking about what's going on, but the way our lives are right now, I just don't have the time for that. So, I love after scrolling through my newsfeed on my phone, getting theological reflections from you then about what's actually happening. And that's been a real benefit for me personally. You started to touch on this and I want to give you a broader platform to talk about this. What would you say are the benefits, and where are the challenges for your current ministry? And just for lack of a better word, we'll call it being a virtual pastor.

 

RGWL:

The benefits are I want to, and I'm really free to kind of say whatever I feel like I need to say, right? That at least in Alabama, a number of my colleagues and I should preface this by saying I was incredibly fortunate in both my time at Church Without Walls, and my time at Birmingham first to have really, really supportive congregations that not only were able to receive really hard words, but actually encouraged their pastors to do those things about matters of justice, and things like that. And many, many of my colleagues did not have that luxury. I mean, many of my colleagues would have been the Bishop would have been getting phone calls if they said to him a shred of some of the things that I was able to say, but even beyond that, doing this platform, I really do have kind of the freedom to kind of make it into whatever into exactly what I think it needs to be, to say the things that I think are the most important to be said right now.

And certainly, I don't believe it's ever helpful to like take pot shots at people or cheap shots at people. But I do think as, for example, I think when you're living in a really precarious time right now with kind of right-wing fascism, with extremes of white supremacy feeling really emboldened. And I think it's one of those times when it's really, really important for pastors, for people with theological training to sort of paint a vision for what the kingdom of God looks like, but also in that to call out all the ways that we are not living into that right now with our fear-based politics, with our demonizing of those, consider the other, whether they're undocumented immigrants or members of the trans community, or whatever it may be. And so, one of the ... I think one of the great benefits is, I can say what I feel like needs to be said in this moment in time, without worrying about somebody calling my boss.

I mean, the worst thing they can do is just unsubscribe, right? I think that the biggest challenge for me anyway, is I'm really profoundly uncomfortable with the self-promotion that's involved with this, that there is this kind of idea that you have to recruit subscribers. You have to put out, "Hey, I'm doing this thing. You need to subscribe to it." And I've done that. I've made some personal ask of people who I think would be interested. I've put some out on social media and kind of one of my go-to lines when I invite somebody to subscribe is like, "Please feel free to roll your eyes at me because literally, I roll my eyes at myself every time I send that one of these emails, or one of these messages." And part of me thinks that there's a lot of that feeling I think I would be concerned about didn't feel that way, right?

Because it is a bit strange to say, "Hey, I'm producing something that is so important. You need to pay me to be able to receive it," that I feel uncomfortable about. But I guess at the same time for the last 15 years, I've been a pastor of a church and every single Sunday I've asked for an offering and I did not feel uncomfortable for that at all. And I knew full well that my salary was being paid out of what was going into that offering. So, it's just been kind of an adjustment for me to deal with whether or not it's, I guess, moral to ask people to subscribe to this. And, I would love to sit here and tell you I've got that all worked out. And, that of course, it's moral and here are the three reasons everybody listening to this podcast should subscribe to my Story Formed I put up. But I can't do that because I still feel a sense of discomfort about making those kinds of asks. So, that's the hardest part for me.

 

TM:

Yeah. So, it sounds like you're getting freedom in one sentence, but I think challenges. I always would come with being a minister, and kind of relying on your people to sustain you. That's a challenge, and navigating all that. Well, we started by talking about Duke. I'm wondering if we could bring it full circle and talk about Duke again. You kind of leaned into talking about Bishop Storey, and Bishop Willimon and others. I'm wondering if you have any other thoughts about how Duke equipped you to be effective for ministry, to be prepared to now be a virtual pastor.

 

RGWL:

Yeah. So, I think several things. One I took...I mean, virtually every class I took there, I just found to be pretty incredible. In particular, I'll give shout outs to Ellen Davis, her Old Testament class. I mean, still every time I'm doing a reflection on something in the Hebrew Bible, I'm pulling out an Ellen Davis book. I think she's as good as it gets in the Old Testament. But, the other thing that I think was really, really helpful for me was Duke’s Field Education, Duke and has just this incredible generous Field Ed stipend that at least for me. It helped me get through seminary debt-free, but it also gave me this opportunity to experience a wide-range of ministry context. So, I did a one placement at a afterschool learning program non-profit. I did get to go to South Africa for the summer at a church in South Africa.

I got to create my own field experience at my church in Birmingham that was primarily with the homeless community. And then, I got to be an intern at a really sort of a town main street kind of church, like 50 miles East of Durham. And just kind of the breadth of those experiences. I really felt like if not fully prepared me, really helped me feel comfortable in a whole lot of different ministry contexts. And then the last thing I'll say about Duke because I think one thing that do really does a good job of is I guess, I'll call it translation that I think you have these incredible theologians with, but often theologians write in language that nobody can understand except other theologians.

And I think one thing that Duke did a really good job is helped training us to wrestle with these really hard, difficult concepts, but then to figure out how to translate those to a local congregation in ways that are meaningful. Right. And that's actually how I think of my role and what I'm doing in Story Form. A lot is the work of a translator to take kind of the theological training that I received at Duke and in my reading since then, and to be able to articulate that in a way that makes sense to someone who hasn't been to seminary, but who is a person who is deeply committed to their faith, deeply interested in faith, and to be able to articulate it in a way that's meaningful for them.

 

 

TM:

Yeah. And I agree with everything that you said, and those continue to be, I think some of the strengths of the school, mainly strong, strong faculty who teach in biblical studies, Black Church studies, the Field Ed program, all of the above. Well, R.G., I'd like to conclude with doing something completely different. I want to have a lightning round where I just throw things at you and get real quick one or two word responses.

 

RGWL:

I'm ready.

 

TM:

All right. Would you consider yourself an early bird or a night owl?

 

RGWL:

Early bird.

 

TM:

What's the best book that you've read recently?

 

RGWL:

Late Migrations by Margaret Renkl

 

TM:

I haven't heard that. I'll check that out. What's a small thing you miss about Duke?

 

RGWL:

Being a part of the community with colleagues and friends.

 

TM:

Are you and Mary Page, your partner, watching anything? Do you have any like movie or streaming shows that you've recently seen?

 

RGWL:

We're a huge fan of the great British Bake-Off.

 

TM:

Okay. I haven't seen that one yet.

 

RGWL:

It's on Netflix. It's pretty great. It's kind of just a relaxing show that we all need right now during COVID, I feel like.

 

TM:

Yeah. I should throw in here too, that we're recording this in October of 2020. What's a quick piece of advice you have for someone considering a call to ministry?

 

RGWL:

I think trying to figure out a way to do it as who you are authentically, that a call to ministry has to be able to be lived out authentically for who you are, and any institution that tries to make you be somebody other than who are, they're not the ones who give you your call, anyway. God is.

 

TM:

What's some recent music that you've heard?

 

RGWL:

John Prine’s last album before he died, The Tree of Forgiveness.

 

TM:

Okay. Last one here, Alabama football or Duke basketball?

 

RGWL:

Todd, that's hard. Well, I'm going to go with Duke basketball, I think. Mainly because I'm on the Duke Divcast.

 

TM:

That's the right answer. And I didn't want to end this conversation without calling you out as someone who tries to fight against the powers and principalities. And yet, you're an Alabama football fan. There's an inconsistency there.

 

RGWL:

That's an inconsistency being a Duke basketball fan, but we are all going on to perfection as those of us in the Methodist tradition likes to say.

 

TM:

Well, I've really enjoyed this. And something I say often is one of the best things about Duke is just the people that you happen to know. And I often say, I know so many amazing people because I was a student here, and I've continued to work here. And when I say that, I'm often thinking you're one of the people I'm definitely thinking of. And I'm just proud to call you my friend.

 

RGWL:

Thanks so much, Todd. I certainly feel the same way about you. And yeah, I mean, I completely agree with that. Yeah, they're the people that we got to go to school with the faculty, the people, the former faculty, just some of the things that people are doing and have done just blows me away when I think about it.

 

TM:

All right. Well, all the best. Thanks for spending time. You’re listening to the Divcast, be sure to subscribe to our feed available anywhere you find podcasts, you can send us feedback and questions by emailing divcast@div.duke.edu. Our executive producer is Morgan Hendrix. Sound design is by Brandon Holmes. Editing support provided by Kinsley Whitworth. Research help came from Brooke Reardon M.Div. 2022. Our music is from Christian Daponte, M.Div. 2021. We'll end with a Div Did you know which is a fact or interesting aspect about Duke Divinity School that you may or may not know? Did you know that only 23 students were enrolled in Duke Divinity School’s first class and three of those 23 were women? This was back in 1926. However, in just five years, the student body jumped over 150 and today is over 600. I hope you'll take the opportunity to join us again on the Divcast.