Featuring Dean L. Gregory Jones

Divcast Bonus Episode State of Duke Divinity School in 2021 Transcript

 

Rev. Todd Maberry:

Welcome to the Divcast. The podcast that gives you an inside look into the Duke Divinity School community. I'm your host for this episode, Todd Maberry. Today's a special bonus episode where I'm speaking with the Dean of Duke Divinity School, Greg Jones. I want to connect with Dean Jones to talk about the state of Duke Divinity School in 2021, how we have been impacted by the pandemic, what has changed, and what we anticipate going forward. Please enjoy this conversation with Dean Jones.

Dean Jones, I appreciate you taking time to have a conversation about the state of Duke Divinity School in 2021.

 

Dean Greg Jones:

Glad to do so.

 

TM:

I want to get into how the pandemic has impacted the school and maybe what we can expect for the future, but first, I'm just curious on a personal level, how has this global pandemic impacted you and your family?

 

GJ:

That's a great question. First thing I'd say is that we've been very fortunate in that all members of our immediate family have stayed safe and well. We have a daughter-in-law who's a physician and been at the hospital every day caring for patients, and she was one of the first people to get vaccinated, but fortunately has not had COVID. So, there haven't been any personal impacts. It has affected us in terms of travel and not being able to see family and those sorts of dynamics that has affected everybody, but we've been relatively safe and grateful for our family's safety in the midst of it all.

At the same time though, I would just say that I sometimes refer to multiple pandemics of the last year. Not only COVID, but also the greater attention to racial injustice, the loss of jobs and economic disruptions, and more recently, I've also been concerned about mental health as a dynamic in the midst of it all. And I've just been really concerned for families and for friends and lots of people around the country and around the world who have been suffering from different dimensions of all of those pandemics over the last year.

 

TM:

Yeah, appreciate you bringing that up and I was hoping we could start by naming the current moment. I really appreciate some of the language that you've brought, including the four pandemics. You also just have released a book with Andrew Hogg called Navigating the Future, where you try to articulate the present moment. And the word I keep coming back to from that book is 'bewilderment'. I wonder if you could just speak a little bit more to the current season or the current moment that we're living in?

 

GJ:

Sure. Well now, we're also dealing with the political polarization and the horrifying events of last week in the Capitol, which had been building for some time, but really laid bare the fragmentation and the polarities that exist in our culture. So I'd add that in as a new dynamic. Maybe not a new dynamic, but certainly a more intense dynamic. And I think the pace of change had been leading to a sense of bewilderment even before 2020 hit, and that had been developing across a good bit of time. But I think that now what we're seeing is the convergence and overlaps of all of these in a way that's just making people more fearful, more anxious.

And part of the reference in the book to bewilderment is actually to the times in the wilderness of the Israelites, and there's a sense of having lost their way. And I think culturally in our county, we are in a place where there are a lot of people who are afraid about whether there is a hopeful future. And I think this is a particularly important moment for the church to step up and remind us that God is the future, that we bear witness to the reign of God and that we'll be able to navigate our way through the bewilderment as long as we keep our North Star, namely God and the reign of God, central.

But I think that it's very difficult when we're uncertain or fearful to actually keep our focus there. The most common phrase in the bible is some version or another of "Be not afraid". And that's because it can often lead to shortsightedness or even blindness or distorted vision, and we need to be oriented not by fear, but by love.

 

TM:

I appreciate you bringing that up and naming that. And I should mention, too, that you and I are recording this conversation in mid-January of 2021, so who knows what will be happening when whoever listens to this listens to it down the road?

 

GJ:

Sure.

 

TM:

Shifting to Duke Divinity School, it was around mid-March that Duke University went into almost a lockdown, a quarantine, and I would say the rhythms that we had experienced before March of 2020 have not returned. I'd be curious to hear from you on your perspective. What are the ways that Duke Divinity has responded to just disruption caused by the pandemic?

 

GJ:

Yeah. We had to make a very fast pivot last March when we went from entirely in-person classes to entirely online classes in the spring. And then over the summer, we realized that while we'd be able to do some in-person classes and some hi-flex classes as it's come to be known, where some people are present and some people are accessing online, in addition to our regular work that we'd already been doing with hybrid classes. We spent a good bit of time over the summer really preparing our faculty to be ready to teach in these new modalities, and that's worked really well.

 

GJ:

The fall was challenging in a lot of respects. No fall break made it feel even more like a marathon for faculty and students, but people were really resilient. And one of my favorite conversations was with our student government leader where they said to me, I think half-joking and half-serious, "Tone down the professors. They're doing so much creative stuff that we're having a hard time keeping up." And the image, to me, of middle-aged faculty being ahead of our younger student body was delightful and a credit to our faculty and all the work they did over the summer.

It's changed how we interact and we've learned a lot about not just teaching remotely, but doing it fully online and engaging tools to make it possible to do it really well, and I think that will be something that we continue to learn from and grow with, the use of technology in teaching and learning, both in classrooms and the hi-flex and hybrid modalities. So, it has accelerated transitions we already had anticipated and we're now discovering new possibilities, including the development of a hybrid version of the Master of Divinity Degree.

 

TM:

Yeah. Thank you for bringing up that hybrid M.Div. We've been pioneering hybrid programs for about a decade now and we haven't offered it for the M.Div program and I think we're getting close now to being able to release that. Is there anything more you want to say about that hybrid M.Div?

 

GJ:

Well, I think it's an important opportunity, particularly in a time when we don't know. The good news is the vaccines, as they roll out, we hope will enable more face-to-face teaching in the future, but we don't know what the future holds. And still, travel will be difficult for some people, and the experiments we've learned of really equipping teaching in a hybrid or a hi-flex mode has now given us confidence that we can also do the kind of serious work of Christian formation that's always been a hallmark of Duke Divinity School and it's especially important for people who are preparing for ordained ministry to be able to do that in a hybrid modality. So we're really excited about launching that this fall and continuing to grow in our capacity to deliver quality theological information in a variety of modalities that can serve our students well, while still emphasizing both intellectual rigor and Christian formation.

 

TM:

Yeah. As someone who did the M.Div myself in person, at first I was hesitant about these hybrid programs, but just as I've watched our MA and our Doctor of Ministry students, the community and the depth of engagement that they have with the faculty, that really convinced me that a great next step for us is to just have a hybrid M.Div where students can remain in their context in ministry, but yet access the opportunities that we have for formation here at Duke Divinity School.

 

GJ:

Yeah, I fully agree. I've taught in the D.Min. program almost every year since we started it, and I really love that program and I love the hybrid approach and have had great community develop among the students with each other, and I've also felt like I've gotten to know students extremely well through that. And I think the formation that we've been doing through the D.Min as well as through the MA have been very rich and significant.

 

TM:

I also want to add to something earlier you said, too, of how impressed I am with our faculty and the work that they've done to pivot. I mean, they were formed in a very particular way to be teachers in a particular way and this moment is asking for something different. And pretty consistently I've heard from current students an appreciation for the faculty and how things are continuing to move forward even with this major disruption.

 

GJ:

Yeah, I agree. If you had told me in mid-March that we would have made the pivot in the Spring as quickly and as smoothly as we did and that we would then be able to make such advances over the summer to prepare for the Fall and have such a successful Fall, I would have been skeptical, but it's really worked out extremely well and I credit our faculty and our staff. Everybody really rallied. You and your team rallied last Spring in a very rapid time to move from on-campus visits to virtual visits, and I just think what you and your team and what everybody did, the staff, the faculty, our alumni, just varieties of folks. If you look at the number of webinars we've done on a whole variety of topics over the last 11 months, it's been really quite extraordinary.

 

TM:

Yeah. I would say that right now I feel weary from all the changes and all the different things we've had to do, but it's a good tired where I feel like we've done good work as a community to continue to be who I think God has called us to be in this moment.

 

GJ:

Yeah. Well, I think that that sense of weariness is common for a lot of people and it's because of all the changes and challenges that we've been faced with on so many different fronts over the last 10 or 11 months. And that's why I've added mental health into the dynamics. If you just think about the disruption to ordinary routines and the inability to see friends and family face-to-face, it's been really challenging. I remember one of the phrases that Sam Wells, who's the vicar at Saint Martin-in-the-Field, former Dean of Duke Chapel, member of our faculty, he did a webinar for us last October or early November called Soul Tending in a Virtual Age. And one of the things he said was, as a pastor, he's telling his congregation, "I'm not hugging you now so I can hug you sooner." And I thought that was really thoughtful and insightful and it also reminds us of the pain of the present moment and the weariness of the present moment that we're enduring in order and in hope of a time when we can get back to that more familiar kinds of sets of interactions.

 

TM:

It's obvious to everyone that we're not going to return to some past, that we will be living in a new normal. You had alluded to this, but are there any changes that you anticipate will linger once the pandemic has dissipated?

 

GJ:

That's a great question and I'm not even sure I know what all the changes are going to look like. Mary Barra of General Motors, who's a Duke trustee, the CEO of General Motors has said she's actually referring not to a new normal, she's referring to a new abnormal. And the reason she says that is she just thinks it's going to take a lot longer than we anticipate to figure out what changes are going to be permanent and what ones will be temporary.

I think about that grocery stores have talked about how online grocery shopping is now where they thought it might be in 2035. And health systems are talking about how telemedicine is where they thought they might be in 2030 to 2035 already because of the effect of this. I do think that there will be some significant changes in worship. I heard one pastor of a large congregation say that he's now learning that he needs to flip his own mindset, that he's not just preaching to a congregation that happens to have cameras doing livestream kinds of broadcasts, but that he's actually more like Stephen Colbert with a live studio audience, but his primary audience is through the camera. It's a much broader audience.

I think that's going to affect how we think about worship, how we prepare for preaching, how we think about music. And all those dynamics, there'll be some that will return to familiar, but I think there may be also some permanent changes, and I think the educational delivery will continue to accelerate and the use of technology. My biggest worry probably, in addition to the kind of political fracturing and the racial injustice issues, my biggest concern is about the loss of jobs, and my fear is that a lot of those jobs aren't going to come back because of changes in so many different sectors and arenas.

And I think this is a huge opportunity for the church because the church, especially the Black church, historically, has been a catalyst for job creation and for helping people in their communities. And I think it's an opportunity for the church to play that kind of catalytic role again because I don't think it's going to work to imagine new jobs, a new manufacturing plant from a major car manufacturer moving into a region of a state. It's going to be much more at the local level, at the franchise kind of level, and I think churches have a huge role to play in attending to these longer term issues. And I think that also is going to affect how we think about what students need to learn as they prepare to be Christian ministers going forward.

 

TM:

That's really insightful. And a common question I get from prospective students is, "Will Duke be offering on-campus classes in fall of 2021?" And you and I were speaking earlier, Duke has not made any official announcement. Duke tends to be conservative on these matters, I think in a good way, and also by virtue of us being tied to a medical system as well, there's just a lot of complicated moving parts. If I had to guess personally, I'd be curious to hear your reaction to my guess, we are already offering on-campus classes with testing, and masks, and safety precautions in place. My guess is in the fall that will be increased, but anybody who's on campus will need to show proof of a vaccination, assuming vaccinations are widely available by the fall. But yet, there will still be some virtual options going forward. Would you say that's a good guess? How would you react to that?

 

GJ:

Yes. I think that's a very good guess. If vaccinations are not yet widely available because I know that young adults are low on the priority list for vaccinations, so my guess is that we'll be at least where we can, this fall and spring, where it's possible. Vaccination will be the preferred way to deal, or alternatively, testing. Duke's done really well with testing. And one of the things we've learned is that there's been zero transmissions through classroom instruction over the course of the fall. So I would be optimistic that barring some dramatic new variant or some outbreak that the fall will be both in-person and offering online options and hybrid options. Probably more so than this spring, but then again, everything has to be taken with a grain of salt. I used to think about having a high tolerance for ambiguity and being pretty good at long range thinking, and these days, it's stretching. My power for ambiguity and long range feels like about six weeks from now.

 

TM:

And I want to go back to your book, new book, Navigating the Future, building off what you just said. In the book, you make a point of that mission, and vision, and strategy, they're all important for an institution, but even of a deeper importance is purpose. For individuals, for institutions, for communities. So, what would you say is the purpose of Duke Divinity School right now?

 

GJ:

Well, our purpose has always been to prepare Christian leaders for a variety of ministries, both lay and ordained, the central program being our Master of Divinity program. And we've surrounded that with a number of programs for laypeople. The MA, the MTS for people who are considering other vocations. I think our focus and our purpose that we've sharpened it to is to renew Christian imagination for a transformed world. And that's a particular purpose in this time. I've sometimes been saying over the last year that I felt like both in the church and in the broader culture, we're suffering from imagination deficit disorder.

As we shrink in fear and anxiety, hatred, bitterness, whatever negative terms that you want to describe, but the fear tends to shrink our imagination. And the Gospel calls us to a bold imagination. So renewing that Christian imagination for a transformed world is something I think that people are very hungry for, families are hungry for, communities, and the broader world. And that's the sense in which I would say our purpose is to renew Christian imagination for a transformed world. The way we do that is by preparing Christian leaders for a variety of ministries, both ordained and especially in local congregations, as well as laypeople who are going into teaching and other vocations, and nonprofits and other sectors.

 

TM:

A related question, and right before I was recording this, I was talking with some current students and I mentioned, "Hey, I'm going to be speaking to Dean Jones. What question do you have for Dean Jones?" And one that rose to the surface is, "What's your hope for students?" What do you think is most important for students to learn at this time before leaving Duke and entering into ministry?

 

GJ:

Oh, thanks. That's a great question. My hope is for students to sense that this is our time as Christians to lead and that they would be venturing forth with a sense of confidence, and trust, and hope. That we can enable human beings to flourish bearing witness to the Gospel, the good news of Jesus Christ. And my sense is that we need to have Christian leaders who really point to the reign of God as a sign of that hope. So I'd hope that our students will cultivate wisdom even more than knowledge, that I hope that they'll develop skills of bridge building and relating to others faithfully and effectively, and I hope that they'll be the kind of people of character that others are drawn to. That when you see our students as graduates living in the world, they say, "Oh, I want to be more like that." And, "If that's what Christianity's about, sign me up." That kind of witness, that kind of faithfulness, that kind of creativity, I really hope for from our students.

These are times when it's easy to just kind of get stuck in the status quo and I want our people, our graduates, our students to be formed in ways that they have a confident trust, that there is good news to share and that they want to share it with people wherever they happen to be. Assigned or choose to go, whether it's a lay ministry, an ordained ministry, whether it's a congregation, a college, or any other setting.

 

TM:

That's really beautiful and well-said. Before we wrap up, is there anything else you want to share?

 

GJ:

Well, I'd say that you and I are both graduates of the Divinity School. I'm from a lot earlier. My wife is a graduate of the Divinity School. And one of the things I've always valued is that our degrees have appreciated in value. That as strong as our history has been at Duke Divinity School, we're always focused on leaning into a more innovative future to bear witness to the good news of the Gospel.

So joining up with Duke Divinity School is a kind of lifetime adventure that I think rewards itself well after your time as a student, and that's something I continue to be grateful for. Just a few weeks ago, one of our emeritus professors who had died a number of years ago, his widow died, Kristen Hertzog, and it just took me back that I took her husband for a class my first semester of Divinity School, and then I got to know Kristen as she was helping both fund and lead trips to Peru for students in really remarkable ways. And it just made me so grateful for the more than 40 years now that I've had connections to Duke Divinity School, and that's the kind of commitment I believe is important for all of our students and our alumni to continue to grow with gratitude for what happens when you're a student in the Divinity School and to continue to lean into the future and see what new opportunities are going to present themselves.

 

TM:

I appreciate you saying that and I routinely tell prospective students that attending Duke Divinity School was perhaps the best investment I've ever made in my life. I want to just close by saying I recently read a book that just came out called Leading with Character by Jim Loehr and in the book he talks a lot about how energy is so important for a leader. And previously, it was thought that time is a leader's most important asset, but Loehr makes the argument that energy is, and I just want to thank you because I've always admired the energy that you bring to your leadership and your tireless efforts to make Duke Divinity School an excellent institution. So thanks for what you're doing and thanks for leading during this time of wilder seas.

 

GJ:

Thanks so much. It's great to be with you. And thanks for all you're doing to lead us in admissions.

 

TM:

All right. All the best.

 

GJ:

Thanks, you too.

 

TM:

Thanks for spending time listening to the Divcast. Be sure to subscribe to our feed, available anywhere you find podcasts. We would love to hear from you. You can send us feedback and questions by emailing us at divcast@div.duke.edu. Our executive producer is Morgan Hendrix. Sound design is by Brandon Holmes. Editing support provided by Kinsley Whitworth. Research help came from Brooklynn Reardon, M.Div. ‘2022. Our music is from Christian Daponte, M.Div. ‘2021. We'll end with a ‘Div did you know’, which is a fact or interesting aspect about Duke Divinity School that you may or may not know.

Did you know that Duke is located in the larger area known as the Research Triangle? It is the largest research park in the United States and is anchored by the only three R1 research universities in North Carolina. Duke, NC State, and UNC Chapel Hill. The Triangle is one of the fastest growing areas in the United States. Roughly 76 people move to the area every day. I hope you will join us again on the Divcast.