Interview

Interviewee: Tyler Swanson (Durham Chapter of NAACP)

Interviewers: Katie Jane Fernelius, Shaker Saman, Phil Bennett

Videographer: Leo Lou

Date of interview: April 1, 2016

(0:37) Katie Jane Fernelious: So can you introduce yourself for us, and tell us a little bit about a day in your life?

(0:41) Tyler Swanson: Alright, so I am Tyler Swanson. I’m a recent grad of North Carolina A&T. Um, I currently serve as the Youth and College Field Secretary for the North Carolina NAACP, uh… and that’s mainly it.

(0:57) KFJ: And what does a day in your life look like?

(0:59) TS: Oh, I’m sorry. Um, meetings. Lot of meetings, um, a lot of emails, phone calls. Um, building our youth councils and college chapters to make sure that have the tools and the uh resources they need to sustain to do this work um, in the forward together moral movement. It has its good days and bad days. A lot of — it can be very stressful but it’s all worth it in the end.

(1:29) KJF: Just something I’m really curious about, is how did you learn about North Carolina’s history? Did you learn it primarily in classrooms, or from your family?

(1:37) TS: Um, so bits and pieces was from family, but majority of it — um, well I’m not gonna say bits and pieces majority of it was at home, you know, hearing stories from my grandparents about how she lived through Jim Crow, and um, growing their childhoods, then um, having conversations with older people in the communities, and just taking that in. But majority of it about fusion politics that we’re living in is mainly through my undergraduate experience at North Carolina A&T.

(2:07) KJF: What kind of stories would they share?

(2:08) TS: Um, primarily the ones that they, I guess, chose to talk about was you know, going through the back doors to go to certain restaurants, or going to the movies having to sit up at the balcony, uh, and different stories. You know, uh, one my grandfather often shares is um, well they grew up in Gibsonville, North Carolina which is uh, not too far from here, and they were talking about how when they would walk across the railroad tracks, students, folks would throw rocks at them, and stuff like that. So, that, that’s kind of, and then I have some other family members who would share other stories. But they kind of caught my attention. I guess I kind of got trapped into that kind of work — fighting for justice — um, but I don’t regret it.

(2:57) KJF: Do you think you’d be an activist if you grew up outside of North Carolina?

(3:02) TS: I’m sure I would because I love to talk. I used to get in trouble all the time in school — elementary school — for talking all the time and not knowing when to be quiet.

So um, I was the kid who was always in silent lunch. Always speaking up for somebody else when I probably should have been minding my business, but that was just something that was kind of instilled into me growing up. If you see something that is wrong, speak up and say something. Because if not, you’re just as guilty as those who don’t say anything, so I think I would, uh and I think with my silent lunch stories, I got so great that I could actually communicate with my eyes and body language, so silent lunch was really great and so-

(3:43) Shaker Samman: Building-building skills you needed later on

(3:44) TS: Right. Exactly.

(3:46) KJF: So could you tell us a little about how you began your involvement in Moral Monday?

(3:49) TS: So it was with a professor — I had a professor Derrick Smith at A&T in the political science department which my degree is in. Um, just hearing all of this craziness about what was happening in 2013 um, when the supermajority when they gained — once they gained the supermajority. Um, and the, you know I was hearing some of the things that was happening and I just thought that he was this angry black man just trying to scare us and wake us up, but it worked. He did wake us up. But, one of the bills that primarily got my attention — inspired me to do something was Senate Bill 666. Senate Bill 666 was the one that was gonna tax college students’ parents $1200 if they decided to vote on campus. Um, we looked at that — it was a poll tax. It was unconstitutional. So some students — I was a part of the A&T NAACP chapter — um, so some students, um, I joined their political action committee, so students were in the political action committee organized, we began to organize the march.

We kinda talked about what we could do, and I got on the phone — I remember calling down to Raleigh, calling Representative Adams, like “Hey, this-this is not right. You all need to do something. What can we do?” And so we had some conversations like you all need to organize a march.

I went back to the group and said “We need to march. We need to uh fight this. And so with the — everybody’s different personalities and ideas it kind of was um, our meetings would get a little intense, because we all wanted to do something, but we didn’t know what we wanted to do. So um, we at the — we would meet at least three times a week in our library, um to organize and brainstorm different things so, we knew we wanted to march, and so the march that we had was called voters for free voting: empowering the people, and it was April 12, 2013. It’s a day that I’ll always remember. Um, and it was students from A&T, Bennett, and UNCG’s NAACP chapter. We joined together and organized our first official um, protest against Senate Bill 666 and House Bill 589. Because at the time, House Bill 589 had a provision where college students could not use their IDs. So we looked at that as a way of shutting folks out of the process, simply because the year before, in 2012, college students and young people across this country and older people joined to re-elect President Barack Obama, so we heard this voter fraud happening — which is a big myth, um so we had that march.

The funny thing about that day and that march— we wanted to have that march from A&T’s campus— just the history with the A&T four and we have this big A&T four statue in front of Dudley Hall which is the old— when the school was first built in 1891 that was the administration building so it’s the oldest piece of land on the campus and it’s very historic, so we wanted to march from Dudley Hall down to the Gifford County Board of Elections where they have the governmental plaza and host the um, teach-in, or not a teach-in, a rally about this and expressing to the community about why this bill is against our rights — violates our rights. So of course our administration gave us the run around and was like, you know, we can’t— you all can’t do political things on campus, but you have a sign—we have a big statue that honors four men who became politically involved, and who changed the country, so we, we kind of got shut down and gave us the run around, saying it will take you all six months to get paperwork processed, so we began tor reach out the community. So Bethel AME church which was right down the street opened up their doors and allowed us to have folks from the community come in.

We were able to talk with them, conduct voter registration and educate them about the Senate bill and House bill. Um, Reverend Barber — we had reached out to Reverend Barber and were like— I knew, I’d read about him I was like “he probably won’t be able to show up. He’s a busy man. Reverend Barber walked in the door and um, Rob Stevens, who was the former Field Secretary, showed up and then um, our local President, uh from the Greensboro branch, Dr. Curtis Brown, so I was like, “wow, we kind of started something here. We got something going. So we held a— we marched. And it was funny because we didn’t think the march was going to happen, because that day— the same day we had a— the campus was on lockdown. We had the umbrella gunman. Someone was mistaken an umbrella for a gun and the campus was on lockdown all morning, so the march was being promoted with students and then when that happened, it kind of got put on the back burner. So we made a way and it was, it happened.

We had more, and I don’t necessarily remember the numbers. I want to say it was at least 50 to 75 folks showed up and a church, and community members and League of Women voters, and all of these folks began to join with us and fight this cause. So that was how I originally got involved, and then that next week, we— it might have been two weeks after— it was around the same day as, um, SNCC was formed, because the month of April is such a historic month in a sense. Um, SNCC was founded in April, and so two weeks— it might have been two weeks, I don’t necessarily remember— um, a group of students, actually, um, went down to the General Assembly, in the Senate gallery and we listened to them debate House Bill 589 and how they were sitting there justifying how this bill is okay and not knowing that — well they knew that 500— I think it was 500,000 North Carolinians at the time, did not have the proper ID. So um, and I think one of the representatives said that uh well out of that 500,000, 300,000 of them are um, are not valid voters, so it’s not really gonna effect them. So it’s just, they really just didn’t care, just for them to debate a racist bill like that. Because we knew it was going to affect African-Americans, the poor, and college students, and so we sat in the gallery with tape over our mouths. And that tape was symbolizing that once you pass this bill, you’re shutting up North Carolinians.

You’re keeping us out of the process. Um, we had no idea that this was gonna go— that this picture was gonna go viral or it was gonna cause a movement. We just wanted to stand on the shoulders of those who came before us, and pay homage to those by continuing their legacy. And then that following week, uh, the first wave of Moral Monday happened. So that’s why April is a very kind of historic month in my head, or in my life, because all of those events happened within two weeks apart. So it was great. It was great seeing students and young people, who society has marked off as not being involved, or not really caring, stand up and make a change, so.

(10:54) SS: So, you know, you mentioned your professor Derrick Smith. In Ari Berman’s book you— he said you originally wanted to march down to the DMV and chain yourself to the door. But um, you know, he kind of tried to talk you out of it and say, you know, that’s a bit radical of an approach. Why did you choose to take his advice?

(11:14) TS: Well, see I had all these random ideas. The reason why we wanted to march down to the DMV was to demand people not to purchase an ID. That was what we were thinking, and well that’s what I was thinking. That’s what I was trying to persuade the group to go on and was like, “we’ll chain ourselves to the doors, and we’ll tell folks don’t buy IDs because you shouldn’t need an ID to vote,” um, and I talked with Professor Smith who was like “I understand where you’re going with this, but it’s not really a best approach. You’re gonna get yourself thrown in jail and some other charges that might get you kicked out of school. So that’s not the best thing,” so uh that’s kind of how I, we began to change that. But nobody was really going on board with it. It was just me trying to just cause some noise. I don’t know what I was thinking.

(12:04) SS: Well, you were still arrested at one point. (12:07) TS: Yes

(12:08) SS: In the Moral Monday. So why, I guess then— why did you choose to go ahead with an approach that got you arrested?

(12:16) TS: Um, well, I’ve-I knew I wanted to make a change, and I knew I wanted to um, be on the right side of history. Um, but, I didn’t look at it, well I knew I was getting arrested. But I had to persuade my family that I wasn’t going to be arrested so I could participate. But, I looked at it as doing what the constitution— the North Carolina constitution says. It states that we have the right to peacefully assemble, to— I’m paraphrasing here— to um but we had the right to actually talk with our legislators and conduct them, tell them, you know, you work on behalf of the people. You have to— we’re not satisfied with what you’re doing in a sense. But of course they didn’t listen, I was arrested, and I look at that arrest, at that moment, actually listening and following through with listening to Professor Smith for once, as one of the best decisions I’ve ever made, because it was a little bit more constructed, and it was a better process than us just going down to the DMV and looking like a bunch of crazy folks just chaining ourselves to the door, so.

(13:29) SS: So then just to follow up on that, do you think there’s a role for that kind of radicalism in this kind of protest? Or is moderation, or more conservatism the best way to accomplish your goals. Like what’s the balance there?

(13:40) TS: Well I think you definitely need both. The reason I don’t think that idea would have been feasible at the time because of course because you know we didn’t have the resources, we just were talking, I wouldn’t say out of the side of our neck, but were just throwing ideas out that we thought could get students involved, by being the most radical bunch of student, you would get more students join on in the cause. Um, that’s somewhat true, but that’s not always true. Sometimes taking not the safe approach, but the most strategic approach, is the best way to get folks to jump and join your cause, and that’s what the Moral Monday movement did. What the Moral Monday did. It was very strategic. It had a very long term goal, and um, in fact we were the only state in the history to have more than 1,050 get arrested at the stat capital, so. You have to have both in order to make some type of change, I think.

(14:41) KJF: Something I’m really struck by in your story is talking about the involvement of young people, but also how you connect with other kinds of community organizations. So what do you think is sort of the unique role that young people play in this movement?

(14:53) TS: Um, I love the quote, it’s not the quote— it’s the lyric in Glory, when Common says you need the energy of the young people, and the wisdom of the elders, and that’s what I believe you need in any movement, and when you look back at history, young people I always quote this, or this in a speech or whatever, young people always play that pivotal role, because young people at the time did not have a lot to lose. The elders, or other folks in the community, they have jobs and had families they had to take care of, and you know college students and young people, we’re trying to find ourselves. We’re trying to, um, you know, create. We’re trying to mold ourselves in a sense. So sometimes in order to— the best way to fin yourself is you have to lose yourself. And I do believe that that’s the best way, and so looking back, students sometimes have a little bit more courage, or are more willing to go against the grain than those who are afraid like some adults. And some folks are just afraid to take that first stance, so when young people out there go against the grain, um or challenge the status quo, other folks will join on because you’re seeing young people take a stance, and that’s what we did. We didn’t know what the next steps were.

We just wanted to make a difference, and we knew that the right to vote was such a sacred thing, because African-Americans gave their blood, shed their lives, and the vote is the most precious thing, just because the stories behind it and the struggles behind it. So that’s why we wanted to make a stand.

(16:35) SS: So you mentioned, you know, this sort of courage and kind of, my question is that, do you think that the courage and maybe the reputation that comes with that courage to be kind of an activist that is generally given to youth voters. Do you think that had a role in perhaps inviting this measure that restricted or made it harder for those people to vote— the youth?

(17:03) TS: I do. I think so. I think um, our friends at the General Assembly weren’t slow. Um, they know that the young vote is one that carries a lot of weight. And most young people are very progressive, and very um, progressive in their thinking, so typically the young voters can sway the election. And this new electorate that we’re seeing you know, folks are afraid of that, so they’re thinking abut implementing crazy laws that’s just gonna keep us out of the process, but in fact I think you’re gonna tick a lot of folks off when you tell folks they cant do something, it’s just gonna cause more folks to go vote in droves. And I think that’s what we’ve began to see.

(17:49) SS: I see. So, if I could actually just touch back on something else you said. You know you said a vote is the most important thing. To you, what is the true meaning of a vote? What’s the value of it?

(17:59) TS: Well, I would say that the vote, and one thing that I’ve learned here is, and I’ve hear one of the SNCC veterans say is the vote is the tool to bring forth change. Voting is not always the first— it’s the first step, but it’s not the most important step. You have to go out there and you have to vote. And then once you cast your vote, you have to hold folks accountable. And that’s what we kind of forget. You know we cast our vote and we just say, you know, that’ it, but there’s more to that, because you have to hold those folks that you’re voting into office accountable, and that’s what we forget to do, so yes, um, voting is the tool— it’s a tool, but there’s many tools to make democracy— um to bring democracy to this country.

(18:44) SS: Um, so you know the vote is so important, and while you were at A&T, I believe you went door to door and registered voters. I believe the number is around 5,500?

(18:55) TS: Yes.

(18:56) SS: Did you ever encounter people who you know, weren’t interested in registering to vote.

(19:01) TS: No, well that 5,500 number that we were able to register, um, was during 2014 during that election on our campus. Um, that yes it was 2014. Wow, years and days just

(19:18) SS: Yeah, long time ago.

(19:19) TS: Right. Um, we had formed a coalition on students with SGA- the um, greeks on campus and other organizations— the NAACP, um to get students out in the process. Because folks actually, young people are actually involved, and in tune and eager to go and vote, and out of that 5,500, we had so many students who were actually had so many issues who were trying to go out and vote because of issues with their voter registration forms, um so when, what I witnessed first hand is when people said young people aren’t in tune, I just think that’s a flat out lie. Because I have met so many folks who actually went the extra mile when I told them their voter registration form was not valid. We took so many steps um to make sure people could actually get registered that that’s how I know there is passion in politics, and young people are filling that passion. That we did all 5500 did all those students get to vote, no they didn’t, but we did make sure that those who could, could actually vote, and we knew that House Bill 589, the bill that, the stuff that was implemented in 2014—the same day registration was no longer there, the early voting being turned down from 18 um, from 18,17 days to 10 days, played a role in reaching out to additional students and getting more students to vote. Hopefully, I think I kind of went off on a tangent.

(20:47) SS: Sort of. I’m kind of curious, because even if you know, like you say, students are really into it, still at a base level, 50% of the country doesn’t vote, so there some sort of inherent apathy there, so I’m really curious, how do you confront that?

(21:01) TS: Well, there is, yes. Folks do feel like that their vote doesn’t count. And, you know one thing in 2008, we noticed and the statistics are out there, that the only reason why President Obama won the state in 2008 because um, it was so tight, and he won, it was actually uh, 15— I used to know this off the top of my head so forgive me if I misquote, I’m trying not to. So if you look at how he won, he carried, it was like 15 votes per precinct, which led to his victory here. So with that being said, the vote is, the vote does count. And you have to dig in deep. Folks actually want you these politicians want you to believe that your doesn’t count, so you don’t get in the process, but it does. I always tell people all the time. If your vote does not matter, we wouldn’t see the Voting Rights Act getting gutted, We wouldn’t see um House Bill 589 being implemented, if the vote didn’t count. So we’ve just got to change that narrative. We have to change that story that voting is important and does count.

(22:01) KJF: It seems that a lot of these people who are advocating for voter ID laws really want to protect the integrity of the vote, right, and it shows that in polling data, that somewhere between 70 to 80 percent of people are in support of these voter ID laws. So why is your position in the minority if it’s really about, you know, protecting votes?

(22:17) TS: Well, I think those 70-80% are a little confused. And the reason why I say that, and folks, I’ve heard this argument quite a lot. People believe that presenting an idea is actually gonna protect voter fraud, and statistics, and it was even brought up in the court— there’s really no such thing as voter fraud. You have a better chance of getting struck by lightning than actually getting, um, getting, committing voter fraud. And um folks have to understand the difference between a privilege and a right.

Your vote is a right that is guaranteed by the constitution. Drivers licenses, you know, going out to drive, those are privileges. Not everybody is entitled to that. But what you are entitled to is going to cast your vote, at the ballot box without your vote being abridged or denied.

And what we are seeing with House Bill 589 and other extreme tactics to not to promote voter integrity but not to promote voter encouragement, voter disencouragment, rather, is having folks present an ID, because we know that, the you know I believe in the saying that if it’s not broke, don’t fix it. Before House Bill 589, we did not have any voter fraud. In Gifford County I remember Charlie Collnhunt testifying and saying that. And in the state there was no such thing as voter fraud. But what you do, you scare people into believing that, and so now folks say, “Oh, you know there’s dead people out here that’s voting.” And that’s not true. The system is working. It’s just, folks are misinformed, and I’m hoping that what they’re seeing with House Bill 589, now that we have House Bill 589, what folks are seeing is they got something they didn’t pay for. That they didn’t want. The long lines in voting, The hassle, and the, you know the confusion that’s being presented, they didn’t ask for that when they thought they were just presenting IDs. There’s more than that, and they know how to scare people into actually voting against their interests instead of voting their dreams.

(24:26) SS: So just something to kind of follow up on that. Um, you know, um, Dr. Martin Luther King said the ark of the Moral Universe is long, but bends towards justice. But it feels like when you examine North Carolina’s history, every step forward is followed efforts of greater magnitude in the other direction. So, you know, why do you keep fighting the fight?

(24:49) TS: Um, why not? Why not fight the fight? Because we’re seeing that each generation contributes a little bit more to making that ark of justice bend. Or that moral ark bend towards justice. We know that the folks in the 60s had many victories. Voting rights. Brown vs. the Board of Education which was a big victory that the NCAAP played a role in. And the more we begin, and the more each generation begins to put more pressure on that ark, we make this country a lot better for the future. And one thing I look at this is as a legacy. One thing about a legacy is you actually don’t live to see your legacy, other folks do. Dr. King’s legacy will always live on. He didn’t necessarily get to see it, but we’re standing on the shoulders of Dr. King, Ella Baker who was a very key role in history, and um, Fannie Lou Hamer. All of those pioneers didn’t have to take on this fight. Dr. King could have just went on to be a preacher and continued doing what his, you know, going the peaching route. But he didn’t. And so I think certain folks are called to do certain things. Um, and you have to answer that calling. And so I think, this is maybe a calling I have to answer to, and if I don’t, then I would be on the wrong side of history. Nobody want’s to be on the wrong side of history, because one thing about history is it’s here forever. And no matter what you do or no matter what you try to do, you can never undo history. Um, whether it’s good or bad, so.

(26:28) KJF: A lot of people compared your activism to that of the Greensboro four. Do you feel bound to that legacy?

(26:34) TS: I don’t think I’ll ever be able to fill those shoes— let me rephrase that. No I will never be able to fill the shoes of the A&T Four. I’m not trying to be the A&T Four. I’m just trying to make this country better than how I found it, and one thing that the A&T Four had to go through and that I didn’t have to go through is they had to take the beatings. They had to take the spittings and you know, the coffee and all that stuff being thrown at them. I didn’t have to go through that. And you know because they did that, they paved the way and made organizing a lot easier than how it was for them 50, or what 56 years ago. So you know, when folks say that, I’m flattered, but I could never do what they’ve done.

(27:18) SS: Pivoting really quickly to the court case that’s being heard. Um, the entire case rests upon whether or not um, the court can find racial intent in HB 589. Do you believe there was racial intent?

(27:29) TS: Absolutely. Because it you look at what that bill was designed to effect, African-Americans, women, students of color, folks of color, just students in general. It was a very— the bill was designed to—the bill was designed. It was a racist bill. Um, and the reason why I say the bill was racist, if you look at when the bill was introduced, April 4th of 2013. We know that April 4th was the day Dr. King was assassinated. So why would you present a bill um, on the day of that, knowing that a man who was gunned down by violence, a man who was gunned down down dedicated his whole life to non-violence so you want to implement a bill that Dr. King and so many others fought for for voting, so of course I think it was racist. And I mean, the court is not— I’m praying that the court does, the judge does see that. I think anyone with good sense, and good eyes can tell that a lot of these bills, including House Bill 589 and all this stuff we’ve seen from these general assemblies are race-based driven um, threats to democracy and to justice.

(28:37) SS: And so what happens if you know, you lose the court case. What’s next?

(28:44) TS: Well, it goes to Supreme Court, and um-

(28:46) SS: I’m saying at the end of the road, what happens if you lose. What’s next? What’s the next part of this fight?

(28:55) TS: Well I think it’s continue doing what we’re doing. Organizing, fighting and raising awareness. Because the more you raise awareness, and the more you fight, folks actually join the cause. So we can persuade those 70, 80% who think that you don’t, that you need an ID, so I think the fight continues, where the court rules in our favor, which we’re praying that they will, um. The fight will always continue. So it’s up to us to sustain so we can continue to fight.

(29:16) SS: But is that in the form of an appeal, you’re saying— not an appeal process but a repeal of the law, you’re saying you’re trying to convince the actual populace? Or what is the tangible next step there?

(29:29) TS: I’ll leave the legal stuff to the courts, but what I can say from the organizing perspective is that we do continue our cause to present, to show how the right to vote, how Voting Rights Act of ’65 pertains to today’s society, because when you don’t have protection by the federal court, you see this type of stuff. So I’m hoping I’m answering your question, um, but I think that you continue organizing, you continue to shift the consciousness of the people, so… we’ll continue to do that, and we’ve done that, y’know, with Moral Freedom Summer was a great way of, of getting folks in tune, of getting folks to vote, so we’ll keep those methods, keep doing those things.

(30:15) KJF: Do you think it’s worth it to fight the fight for social justice if it won’t end in victory?

(30:23) TS: Wow. Uh. Yes, I do. And the reason why I think we have to is because so many have paved the way for us, so many, so much blood, and sweat, and tears have been shed just for us to do what we’re doing today. And I think only a selfish person could not see it, could not join the cause, not to champion and fight, because we owe this to this world.

We owe it to the future generations, so that one day, fifty years from now, my children, your children, whoever’s children, won’t have to be fighting for voting rights, won’t have to be fighting to make sure that education is properly funded, and and one thing that we have to make sure, that we have to make sure to get a victory, is the right to vote. Because when you have the right to vote, without it being denied or abridged, we can see education being funded, we can see criminal justice reform, because all those issues are, are on the ballot. So we have to keep this fight up.

(31:33) SS: At the age of 22, you know you’ve already become so deeply engrained in this battle yourself, is this something you see yourself carrying out for the rest of your life or do you see yourself pivoting from activism work?

(31:43) TS: I don’t. I think no matter whatever my next chapter is in life I will always use my voice to fight, uh. And use my…

(Phone vibrating.)

(32:13) TS: I hope I’m getting these questions right. I don’t know why I always get a little nervous-

(32:14) SS: No need to be nervous.

(32:21) KJF: Sorry, it was my mom, so I think it always lets the mom calls go through. (32:28) TS: Could we just repeat that question?

(32:30) SS: Yeah, uh…I was asking you, you’re 22, you’re already deeply engrained in this battle over voting rights, is this something that you see yourself doing for the rest of your life or do you think you’d pivot to something else?

(32:43) TS: No, I don’t think I will. I think that as long as I’m living and I have blood in my veins, I’ll always use my voice…to fight, no matter, matter what, what transitions I’ll make in life or what careers I’ll gain or obtain. I’ll always make sure I’m speaking out against injustice, injustice, and making sure that justice, that justice always prevails. My ultimate goal is to make sure more folks get involved and get in tuned, get in tune with this process, because no matter what happens in life, everything…history has a way of repeating itself. And what we’re seeing at a very young age is history repeating itself. We’re living in the 60s all over again, so I don’t want to make sure that I have to live through that again. I want to make sure that others don’t have to live through this, because it’s, uh, in a way, it’s sad that we have to keep this up, but it has to be done.

(33:48) KJF: How do you think we can prevent history from repeating itself so your kids don’t have to fight the same fights you’re fighting?

(33:55) TS: Um, I’m sorry, please repeat.

(33:59) KJF: Yeah, of course. What can we do to keep history from repeating itself since it seems like you have to fight the same fight that often people who came before you had to fight? How are you going to prevent your kids from having to fight that fight?

(34:15) TS: I don’t think that I can prevent that. I can just educate folks and I think that, y’know, injustice is always going to be around, but you have to have foot soldiers on the ground that can fight those injustices, no matter what generation, what these future generations might face, there’s always going to be a call for social justice and folks to fight [for] that. Um, so one thing that I can do is just …y’know, educate them about the movement that’s happening now. Give them a little bit list of advice of how to sustain, because that’s, that’s what I’m fortunate to have is elders that were a part of SNCC, or a part of core, who have done this work, who have given me little pickets of life…not little pickets of life…sorry, little, uh, pockets of wisdom, little nuggets of wisdom, to keep things going. Because history is always gonna repeat itself, but if you know your history and you know what you’re facing, then you’ll know how to position yourself to fight that. So, that’s what only I can do.

(35:20) KJF: Is there anything that we didn’t ask you about or give you the opportunity to speak about that you’d like to speak about?

(35:30) TS: Wow, uh. I don’t think…

(35:35) PB: So, could you talk a little bit about what your priorities are, or take us through what your work life is like now and what you see as, uh, y’know, there are so many big, huge issues floating around, but when you try to boil that down to like a whiteboard of priorities, what does that, what’s on that whiteboard?

(35:55) TS: One thing about me, I’m always involved, I kinda keep my hands in several pots. And I sometimes get burned out, because I can’t necessarily fight everything, but I love to bring awareness to things. So…it’s a lot of things on that whiteboard. Um, that’s, that’s on there…making sure that, the biggest thing that is on the whiteboard currently is making sure that in 2016, in November, when…well, in August, when the semester starts up, that the chapters that we have are trained and they’re aware of this new law, and how to get students involved in the process to vote. Um, that’s the main thing, that’s the big thing. And then, making sure that we find ways to make voting fun, I know that sounds funny to say, but you have to, kind of reinvent the wheel to get folks involved, and you have to kinda do things differently.

So I know we’re working on a project to get folks out to vote, using social media to our advantage, because that’s something that we have that they didn’t have back then, that…and highlighting the injustice we’re seeing in the police system, the constant shooting of black and brown people of color, that’s a big issue that we have to fight, and relaying that back to voting, because, again, voting is the most important tool. We know that this year we’re going to have to elect an attorney general, who will be able to, to be a voice to try and fix those issues. That’s gonna be a [very] thing to fix, but it has to be done. We have a governor and an attorney general who are, who have some blood on their hands, but y’know when it comes to the injustice they created. The project that we’re working on I think is the very, it’s one of the be-, it’s kind of near and dear to my heart now is the case of Dante Sharpe and Calvin Michael Smith who were wrongfully incarcerated. So, making sure that no one has to spend 20, 30 years of their life in jail for a wrong that they did not commit. So that’s why I’m saying voting and criminal justice reform has to be, something has to change with that, because we’re seeing too many people lose their lives.

(38:09) KJF: And if the law is not invalidated by the court before November, what’s the most important message that you can give to people to prepare them to vote? Is it sort of an ID issue, is it uh…where is the sort of focus of your training stuff to get people out there?

(38:28) TS: One thing that I’ve been telling people, even during this midterm election, we saw how…how all of House Bill 589 was implemented in a sense. And thank god for the court reinstating same-day registration and out-of-precinct voting, so my thing is what I was telling voters when I was doing poll walks and monitoring, when you walk in that place to go vote, you shouldn’t leave without an “I Voted” sticker. If that means you have to raise all types of hell to make sure that they don’t deny or abridge your right to vote, you gotta make it happen. So that’s the same message going into November.

When you go in there, ask about provisional ballots, because that’s something that was offered, but a lot of folks didn’t know about provisional ballots…well, let me rephrase that, folks know about provisional ballots, the poll workers didn’t know about provisional ballots. You can’t sit there and pick and choose one of the provisional ballots. And that’s something that we saw. I was telling folks that if Senator Burr can use a provisional ballot, then anybody can get a provisional ballot. So, ask for it. It’s a shame that we have to do this type of stuff, but it’s just too important. So that’s, I think that’s on that whiteboard. It might be a few other projects: strengthening our chapters and seeing new college chapters and youth councils form, because we need all hands on deck in today’s society. I mean, no matter what organization you’re a part of, um, we definitely need that.

(39:51) KJF: A lot people feel like, kind of, the system can’t really solve their problems. And I know there’s a lot of dialogue within Black Lives Matter, um, which is a very diverse movement, about whether voting is even worth it in an election that they feel like no candidate might represent them. What would you say to these people?

(40:07) TS: Well, I would truly say, again, voting is not the only tool, but it’s a tool that we must use. And it sickens me a little bit when I see people of color, African-Americans in particular, talking ’bout they don’t vote or they shouldn’t vote or not encouraging folks to vote when our grandparents and our great-grandparents did not have that right and had to fight it so hard to get that right…so when you tell folks that you’re not voting and that you shouldn’t vote, to me it’s like you’re stepping on the grave of Cheney, Goodman, and Schwerner who were two, three civil rights workers in ’64 who were killed in Mississippi for registering black people to vote. Fannie Lou Hamer and, and, and so many others.

To me, you’re doing a lot of dishonor to Congressman John Lewis who was beaten on that bridge and Miss Amelia Boynton Robinson…so when you tell folks they shouldn’t vote, and yeah, you know, we’re faced with picking the lesser of two evils, but…it’s a shame that we feel that way, but you’ve got to vote. I mean, when you don’t vote, you see what happens. I mean, we’re witnessing it here in North Carolina. When folks slacked on the elections in 2010, we saw how they used certain issues, Amendment One, to, to bring forth those… interesting folks that are so far right, that are voting against their interests and not their dreams, that’s what we’re seeing. So we can’t allow that to happen in 2016. And what we’ve got to do is…and I applaud those members of Black Lives Matter who are challenging Hillary Clinton, who are challenging Bernie Sanders, who are challenging those on the right, because that’s the only way you have to shape, you change their way of thinking is by interruption. And you know, one thing that Dr. Barber said, that I love, is that “you have to have necessary interruptions.”

So when you feel like your causes aren’t being heard, you have to have that necessary interruption to make sure your issue is being championed. And, and, and one thing that, uh, we’re seeing is the criminal justice that has not been brought up, y’know, we’ve seen, y’know, Hillary Clinton and Bill Clinton talk about the harmful bill that he implemented in ’94, ’95, whenever it was, the mass incarceration bill, we’re seeing that now he’s being forced to talk about it. So, it’s great. So I stand for it, I believe that you have to be that necessary interruption, you have to change the status quo, and if you don’t, you just fall victim to it. We can’t afford that.

(42:38) PB: I’d also like to ask, we’re getting to the end of President Obama’s administration and all of the extraordinary features started in 2008. I’m trying to understand what happened to this area over that span–elections in 2010, the reaction to the President and his administration. As an organizer and an activist, do you think more or different things could’ve been done to, uh, make more progress during this period in unifying the country over race? Or are we in an inevitable sort of process of feelings come to the surface sort of inevitably? How do you look back at the eight years, and do you see it as a missed opportunity? Do you see it as a… How do you get us to today and understand the influence that the President has had on those questions?

(43:33) TS: Right, well again, I think, um…when President Obama first took office in 2009, he was hit with the worst economic crisis, the worst, the country was pretty much on the verge of…um, sorry I’m losing my train of thought, I’m sorry, I love a question like that, because ….anyway, get a little too excited. We were seeing that the economic status was just horrible.

Do I think that President Obama has made a lot of progress in this country? Absolutely yes, I think he has. Um, everybody can always do more. And I think that the Black America felt like he was gonna be the president of the Black community and thought that a lot of things that the Black community was gonna…all the answers was gonna be solved.

Well, not all the answers have been solved. What he has done is begin to answer, begin to tap on those questions with, y’know, uh, police brutality. This is something that has been going on for years, but just seeing how in this administration, in his administration, how he’s had to dealt with so many gun violence.

With the Sandy Hook killing. And, uh, the death of Trayvon and Michael Brown and Tamir and so many others. What I think what he’s done is began to get those conversations going. No other President that I can think or that I can remember — well, y’know, I can’t really remember all of them, but just living in this lifetime, and just seeing how he’s able to begin those conversations, to champion those causes, I think that’s great. And I think what President Obama has done, for many Black people in America, is that show them that you can turn any dream into reality. A lot folks didn’t think we’d see the first Black president or first black woman attorney general or first black man attorney general, um, but it’s done. It’s happened.

We’re still working to get a first black, well, uh, second black justice on the Supreme Court, that’s a whole ‘nother story, but he’s done what he’s supposed to do. And I think it’s up to us as organizers to continue to strength– deepen those conversations, because they hit the surface, we got to dig a little bit deeper. And, y’know, the president only has certain amount of powers. And folks didn’t necessarily, I don’t think, understand that.

Congress actually has a lot of the power. So we can’t blame President Obama for failing to do certain things, we have to hold Congress accountable, because Congress has actually began, well not began, they just flat-out denied a lot of the things that he wanted to do that could’ve continued to making this country great, greater, this country is already great, just making it a little bit greater. Than what it was. Yes, he has done it.

(46:28) TS: I think also what we witnessed is y’know even now, I think, this whole race has been…racism has always been here in America. Y’know, we thought, our generation thought that there was a little bit, it was obsolete in a sense, but no. When President Obama first announced that he was running, when he was on the campaign, when he was running, we would see those, those racist comments. So what has happened, folks are seeing now, in 2016, we have Donald Trump who is feeding off of that and… “oh no, this has never happened.” Yes, it has. And you all are the ones who caused this by attacking Muslims, and saying he was Muslim, and all these other things.

They put this fuel out there, and…so what is happening is that Donald Trump has captured it and has just ran with it. And now Fox News and all these far right folks on the far right went out like their hands are clean, but they really aren’t, so…yeah, do we have a lot more work to do? Absolutely. And whoever the next President is, has a lot to, a lot of things to answer for, and has a lot of things to, to do to continue to put this country on the right track and move us forward. And I think an issue that is never gonna go away, no matter who the President is, is gonna be, um, criminal justice reform and police accountability. Those are the two major issues that are present in this country. And I think that Black Lives Matter has done a great job of capturing that energy and capturing young folks to get them involved, because this is something that we’ve been talking about for years, and it’s slowly turning into a reality, another dream turning into a reality, so, y’know…I kinda, it’s funny to me, I…I never would’ve thought when I turned on the television I would see what happened in Chicago with the Trump rally. It was Chicago, I think.

(48:27) SS: Yup.

(48:27) TS: Look so similar to what happened in 1968 when Dr. King was killed. Just seeing how history reflects itself, the riots and so…well, I wouldn’t call it riots, I don’t call it riots. I love Dr. King’s quote saying “riots are the language of the unheard.” That’s pretty much what we’re seeing. Folks are feeling like they are not being heard. Their protests might not look how we want them to look, but they’re still humans, they’re still are hurting. And so you can’t be the next, running to be the next President of the free world, if you want to implement hate and, and it just doesn’t work. So… (softly) we have a lot of work to do. The struggle continues.

(49:09) SS: That’s all the questions I have, do you have anything else?

(49:08) KJF: Thank you so much. I appreciate it.