Dr. Carolyn Westhoff: Even though, on a legal level, New York’s always been about as good as you can get, and better with the Reproductive Health Act, that doesn’t always translate into reality by a long shot. Some of that’s abortion stigma, but some of that’s just fighting for resources.

Dr. Phil Darney: Carolyn, we know one another’s history pretty well, but not every detail. So I want to ask you, when you were a resident at [SUNY] Downstate Kings County, which year was that?

WESTHOFF: I was there from ’78 to ’82. And I was doing saline abortions on shackled prisoners.

DARNEY: You need to be shackled in a saline abortion.

Interviewer: Is that because the prison system was mandating that at that time?

WESTHOFF: The shackling part, or the abortion part?

INTERVIEWER: No, no, no. Abortion part. Was this a choice of the incarcerated person, or–?

WESTHOFF: I don’t think they were being forced to have an abortion. But I really am shocked. I was in a way just moonlighting in our abortion service, because there wasn’t anything for our residents. We had a saline abortion service.

DARNEY: At Kings County.

WESTHOFF: Yeah, at Kings County. It wasn’t all prisoners. And so– I was a resident. I was a very low-status person in this environment, so I was taking care of the patients, but I was not involved in the decision-making. I don’t know.

INTERVIEWER: Okay.

WESTHOFF: I would say when I asked questions, I didn’t get any encouragement. It was a very unpleasant experience. The patients were not treated well.

DARNEY: I had the same experience at San Francisco General because we took care of the incarcerated women. So the sheriff would bring women who were shackled because they were seen at risk of running away, or harming us. I recall, I would’ve been by that time, higher status than you were. You were facing shackles saying, “Look, I’m willing to take my chances in the room, you’re going to be right outside, I’ll call you if I need you, so, will you take the shackles off? I think we’ll be okay.”