Ghats: A personal account of rituals and feelings surrounding a Hindu tradition – part two.
INTERVIEW | TRAILOKIYA RAJ BAJGAIN
Ghats, in sources as wide-ranging as UNESCO websites, to published architecture research articles, are variously described as “steps and landings,” “stepped bathing places,” or “riverside architecture.” However they are described, these stone structures hold a place of great societal significance in India and Nepal. In this interview, Raj reflects on his memories, understanding, and the cultural significance of ghats to the culture of his home country, Nepal.
Ghats： 围绕印度教传统的仪式和感受的个人叙述–第一部分
从联合国教科文组织的网站到公开发表的建筑研究文章，人们对Ghats的描述多种多样，如 “台阶和平台”、”阶梯浴场 “或 “河边建筑”。无论如何描述，这些石头建筑在印度和尼泊尔都具有重要的社会意义。在这篇访谈中，Raj，一个土生土长的尼泊尔人，向我们介绍了 Ghats 的文化意义。
Austin
In our previous conversation, we covered the concept of the Ghats and the rituals associated with Hinduism that are to be performed after one dies. Yet, something that really stuck to me was how public death or the celebration of it is in Nepal. Every culture has its own way of dealing with death and the places they create to execute the rituals of death but a big difference in Nepal is how it is, in a sense, a social event. As in, you can be walking through the city, and you can perhaps smell the burning flesh or even see the flames and the smoke rising into the air. I was really struck by that.
我们之前谈到Ghats的概念以及与印度教葬礼有关的仪式，让我印象深刻的是尼泊尔的公开或庆祝死亡的方式。每个文化对待死亡的方式和进行葬礼的地方都不同，但尼泊尔的特别之处在于它在某种程度上属于社交场合。换句话说，你漫步在城市中时，或许你就可以闻到火化的味道，甚至看到燃烧的火焰和腾空的烟雾。这让我印象深刻。
Nino
Yes, I was mostly thinking of it in terms of what significance it has for the community to be involved in the process. I wonder what is the significance of the whole community being involved in someone’s death.
是的，我主要在想社区参与这一过程的重要性。我想知道，当整个社区都参与到一个人的死亡过程中时，这到底意味着什么。
It is very social. In bigger cities like Kathmandu this may not be the case — it would usually just be friends and family. But back in my village it is entirely social.
During a person’s exact moment of death, we believe you need to drink the water of Mother Ganges for her to carry you. So, the last thing people do is add some form of pure substance; it can be certain grains or the leaves of some plants in a pot of water taken from the Ganges. This water is so important that some of it is usually kept in households.
As soon as someone dies, their entire extended family is notified, and we have the tendency to burn the body of the dead as soon as possible so that the process of liberation can begin immediately. This can include from 50-80 people including family and friends. The larger the gathering you have that means the more meaningful life; it signifies your social standing. Everything is organized by the community. There is no streamlining like there is in bigger cities. The firewood you need to burn during rituals is gathered by the community, every house would contribute and give you a big log of wood. During the ritual, the deceased also must be stripped of their clothes. It is believed that since you came with no clothes, you should also go without clothes.
After the body is burned, any remains are carried to the river to lay them in the water to be carried to the holy sites. Some remains are kept and taken to what would be an even holier site and put in the water there. It is like a “just in case scenario” in which if one river does not carry it to liberation, the other one will.
这是社交性很强的。在加德满都这样的大城市，情况可能不同：葬礼通常只有家人和朋友参与。但在我家乡，这完全是一个社交活动。
在一个人临终的瞬间，我们认为你需要喝恒河母亲的水，她才能带你离开人间。因此，人们做的最后一件事就是在从取来的恒河水中加入某种纯粹的物质，可以是某些谷物或植物的叶子。这种水非常重要，通常每户家庭都会保留一些。
一旦有人去世，整个大家族都会被通知，我们有尽快火化的习惯，这样死者可以尽快得到解脱。这可能涉及到50-80人，包括家人和朋友。葬礼越盛大，说明死者的生活越有意义，这是死者社会地位的体现。由于一切都由社区组织，这里没有在大城市那样的流程。葬礼中所需要的柴火，一般由参与葬礼的家庭提供，每户人家会提供一块大木头。在仪式期间，死者也必须脱去衣服，因为人们认为，既然你是赤身裸体来的，那么你也应该赤身裸体离开。
尸体被烧后，遗骸都会被放入恒河水中，以被带到神圣的地方。有些遗骸会被保留，并被带到更圣洁的地方，放在那里的水中。这就像是“以防万一”—— 如果恒河不能带逝者得到解脱，也还有另一个机会。
Raj
Austin
That sounds like a very big event, different from what we usually see in the United States. There is a lot of hands-on contribution even for guests. Are there any other rituals that are peculiar or specific to the Ghats and to the aspect of death?
这听起来像是一个很大的活动，与我们在美国看到的很不一样，即使是客人，他们也在参与到葬礼的过程中。还有其他与Ghats和死亡有关的仪式吗？
Yes, another peculiarity is that women are not allowed in the Ghats. Now, in bigger cities, things are changing, but in my small village the Ghats are still considered to be filled with ghosts and a rather dangerous place where women should not be. Some rituals can only be performed by the males in the families. All the male members of the paternal side of the family, for example, shave their heads as a sign of respect, keeping only a small piece in the back. In this way, when you see people with a shaved head, you assume they are mourning.
There is also a 13-day ritual, usually performed by the sons, who can only wear white with an open chest and no slippers. They cannot eat salt, turmeric, or garlic. For 13 days, there is a specific ritual book called Garuda Purana that is read, and a priest usually comes. The 13 days following cremation are the most rigorous in terms of rituals, you need to aim for purity. Once those pass you can start incorporating normal food back into your diet, but the white clothes remain for the whole year.
But I want to clarify that the mourning ritual does not only last 13 days — it lasts for a whole year. Rituals associated with mourning are conducted year-round. During that year there can be no marriages in the house and no big ritual worship.
More specifically, you set up a tent and family members can come pay respects there. After the 5th day, they will show up with rice because rice is what was most needed to perform rituals and register their name to make sure it was known that they were there. Another custom is to give the mourning family cows. Cows are considered holy, and we believe the cow will go to the holy river and the one who passed would grab its tail and would be carried by the cow across the river.
是的，另一个奇怪的地方是，女性是不被允许进入Ghats的。但现在在大城市，情况正在发生变化，而在我的小村庄里，Ghats仍然被认为是充满鬼魂的危险之地，是女性不应该去的地方。一些仪式只能由家族里的男性举行，比如，家族里父亲那一方的所有男性都需要剃光头，只在后脑勺留下一小块以示尊敬。这样，当你看到剃了头的人时，你就知道他们正在哀悼。
还有一个13天的仪式，通常由儿子执行，他们只能穿白色的衣服，露出胸口，不能穿拖鞋，也不能吃盐、姜黄或大蒜。在这13天里，通常由祭司朗读一本特定的仪式书，叫做《迦楼达经》。火葬后的13天是仪式最严格的时候，你需要严格遵守。13天之后，你就可以开始恢复正常的饮食，但你必须穿白色的衣服一整年。
我想澄清的是，哀悼的仪式不仅仅持续13天——它持续一整年，与哀悼有关的仪式是全年进行的。在那一年里，家里不能办婚礼，也不能进行大型的崇拜仪式。
更具体地说，葬礼开始的时候你需要搭一个帐篷，这是家人亲戚吊唁的地方。在五天之后，他们会带着大米出现，因为大米是仪式上最需要的，他们还会在那里登记，让人们知道他们来过。另一种习俗是给逝者的家庭赠送牛。牛被认为是神圣的，我们相信牛会去圣河边，过世的人可以抓着牛的尾巴过河。
Raj
Austin
A couple of times now you have mentioned this idea of food being pure and anything the dying person ingests is holy, so the water from the Ganges and no seasoning, for example. I was wondering what they are related to, the specific Ghats or to religion?
你几次提到食物是纯洁的，死去的人摄入的任何东西都是神圣的，比如来自恒河的水，不用调味品。我想知道这些与Ghats或宗教有关吗？
It’s related to the Hindu system. Everything is classified into 3 categories, Sattva, Rajas and Tamas, also known as the 3 Gunas of Nature. Sattva is very pure and holy so white clothes, no animal product including dairy, and very plain food with not many spices. Rajas is known as the worldly — not the purest but not the worst — and Tamas is the most impure category, which includes both things you consume, like alcohol, garlic, hummus, meat, eggs, or feelings, such as hatred, jealousy etc.
这与印度教体系有关。一切都被归类为三类，即善性（Sattva）、热性（Rajas）和暗性（Tamas），也被称为自然的三个质量。善性非常纯洁和神圣，因此穿白色的衣服，吃香料很少的清淡食物，不吃牲畜，不喝牛奶。热性被称为世俗的——既不是最纯净的，也不是最糟糕的——而暗性则是最不纯的类别，如饮酒、吃大蒜、鹰嘴豆、肉、蛋，或者仇恨嫉妒的情感。
Raj
Austin
And according to the traditional way of thinking, what would happen if you broke those rules?
根据传统的思维方式，如果违反这些规定会发生什么？
Your ancestors would become ghosts of this realm, and they would hunt your family for your sins.
It would be like you’ve violated your duties. There is a term, Dharma, that translates both as righteousness and duty and you violated your duty as a son. The ghosts are not evil per se, but they are fulfilling their own Dharma of reminding you that you should not neglect your obligations. That is why every time there is a big ritual worship, we say that if by any accident some of our ancestors have not been liberated yet, we dedicate that ritual to their liberation.
你的祖先将成为这个领域的鬼魂，而你的家族将因你的罪过而受鬼魂折磨。
这就像你违反了自己的职责。有一个术语，Dharma，翻译成义务和责任，你违反了作为儿子的责任。这些鬼魂本质上并不邪恶，因为他们正在完成自己的责任，提醒你不要忽视自己的责任。这就是为什么每次有一个大的崇拜仪式时，我们都会说，如果我们的一些祖先由于任何意外尚未得到解脱，我们将把这个仪式献给他们的解脱。
Raj
Nino
One of the details that I thought was interesting was the color white, particularly because it contrasts with other parts of the world where the color that comes with death is black. What is the symbolism behind white?
我认为有趣的一个细节是白色，特别是因为它与世界上其他一些地方的死亡颜色相反。白色的背后有什么象征意义？
White is the color of mourning. For Hindus, if we are all in white you stand out, you can be spotted in a crowd. The logic behind it ties back to the concept of being pure. White is spotless; it’s without any dirt or impurity.
白色是哀悼的颜色。对于印度教徒来说，如果穿白色，你就会很显眼，在人群中很容易被发现。这背后的逻辑与纯洁的概念有关。白色是无瑕疵的，没有任何污垢或杂质。
Raj
Austin
About these rituals surrounding death in the village and how it brings in so many people together, I wonder how it happens in a big city, how would it be similar and how would it be different?
我们探讨了在农村，葬礼是如何把人聚集起来的，我想知道在大城市中会发生什么，它会有哪些相似之处，又会有哪些不同?
Yeah, in Kathmandu, what they would do is instead of conducting mourning rituals for a year, they would just do it for the first 13 days, but for 13 days, it’s pretty strict.
They would rent out a space so you can mourn instead of your own house, where they would perform all the rituals in the same way, just on a significantly smaller scale.
在加德满都，他们的做法是，他们的悼念仪式不会持续一整年，而只会在前13天进行，但是在这13天里是相当严格的。他们会租一个场地，以便人们在那里悼念，而不是在自己的房子里，他们会以同样的方式进行所有的仪式，只是规模小得多。
Raj
Austin
Would those houses be open just to the family?
这些场地只对家庭成员开放吗?
Not really, not immediate family only. If I knew the person and I would like to pay my respects, I could join. But the number of people there would be much smaller.
不完全是，不仅限于直系亲属。如果我认识那个人并且想表示敬意，我也可以加入。但那里的人数会少得多。
Raj
Nino
I found it interesting how visible grief is with people — with male members of the family being required to shave their heads and wear white clothing. It’s like the culture has a way of respecting grief.
Just thought it was interesting…but also the nature of it is very gendered. I was wondering, how does gender come into this in other ways? How is a woman’s grief validated culturally?
我发现有趣的是，人们表达悲伤的方式很明显——家庭男性成员被要求剃光头并穿白衣。好像这种文化有一种特定的尊重悲伤的方式。
（我）只是觉得这很有趣…但它的本质也是非常有性别差异的。我想知道性别在这个问题中扮演了怎么样的角色？女性的悲伤在文化上是如何得到尊重的？
Yeah, one thing is that usually males are not supposed to cry. I remember I was in seventh grade when my grandma passed and I had my uncle, who I had not seen in a long time, beside me during the rituals. I was about to cry, and he reprimanded me, repeatedly saying “don’t you cry, don’t cry”.
But all my aunts and my mom, and all the sisters, all the females would be crying. It’s somewhat an unbearable kind of scenery. They are fully allowed to process their grief; they will be crying and they will all be remembering the old days and things they used to do with the deceased and they would praise the dead.
After that, tradition says that women’s hair should not be combed until they are purified on the 13th day. Female members are also supposed to take care of all the family matters in this grieving period because males are occupied with the various rituals. So, they would handle everything like cooking, preparing for the feast, noticing who is coming and not coming.
The interesting part is that the first four days are very silent and very upsetting. After six days it has more of party vibes, with a lot of gossip, you would get updated about everybody’s affair and news. More festive so to speak.
通常来说，男性是不应该哭的。我记得我读七年级的时候，我的奶奶去世了。当时一个我很久没见的叔叔在我旁边，我正要哭的时候，他一再告诫我“你不要哭，不要哭”。
但是我的所有姑姑、妈妈，和所有的姐妹，所有的女性都在哭。这是一种让人难以承受的悲伤场景。女性完全可以表达她们的悲伤，她们会哭；她们会回忆和逝者一起做过的事情，并赞扬逝者。
之后，按照传统，女性在这13天期间不可以梳头发。在这个悲伤的时期，男性正忙于各种仪式，因此女性成员还被要求照顾好家里的所有事务。她们会处理一切，比如做饭、准备宴会、留意来往的宾客。
葬礼的前四天会非常安静，很令人沮丧。但是第六天之后，它就更像是一个聚会了，有很多八卦，你会了解到每个人的最新情况。它更像一个节日，可以这么说。
Raj
Nino
Culturally, I can’t relate to a lot of the things that you’ve been talking about. Especially gossip which puzzles me, since it is weird that people are just hanging out and chatting casually while there is a dead person very close by.
从文化上说，我无法理解你一直在谈论的许多事情。特别是在一个刚死去的人旁边聊八卦，这个让我觉得匪夷所思。
Raj
On that note, it is quite different because, particularly in the context of the Indian subcontinent, from your birth, you are exposed to the concept that you are going to get reborn and the understanding that death is a part of life.
Once someone dies, although it is very visually overwhelming and emotionally overwhelming, you know, and you are happy because all you do is hope that the deceased is getting a fantastic rebirth.
在这方面，情况确实不同，尤其是在印度次大陆的背景下，从你出生开始，你就生活在“重生”的观念之中，并慢慢理解死亡是生命的一部分。
一旦有人去世，尽管它在视觉上和情感上都是难以承受的，但你会很高兴，因为你所做的一切都是希望亡者能够得到美好的重生。
Austin
I’m curious to know how these beliefs are changing with generations passing or, in other words, how much do younger people buy into the traditional belief system?
我很好奇这些信仰随着时间推移而发生了哪些变化，换句话说，年轻人中有多少人接受了传统的信仰体系？
In the South Asian context in particular, not just Nepali, my dad’s generation will definitely be more attached to the ritual beliefs. People from my generation would be slightly more distant, but still be more drawn towards them when compared to the younger generation raised in the city. Particularly after the internet boom, people are aware of foreign culture, and different beliefs around the globe, which prompts them to challenge our system. Now they’re people who decide not to be cremated as is tradition.
There is this kind of dissonance coming from the younger generation, which I feel kind of scared about, because our culture has been here for centuries, and slow change is good, but this fast-paced change is kind of scary to witness.
Maybe I’m just biased, because I’m this person from the rural side, who grew up with rituals, and who loves the tradition. But I believe the rituals help a lot. I think they help process your grief in a very healthy way. You’re not shying away from death, but you are forced to deal with it. Seeing the body burn makes you realize that it is just flesh.
It all helps you focus on the good outlook, the aspect of liberation. All you can do for that person now is help them reach that better place and allow them too soon be reborn.
在南亚的背景下，不仅是尼泊尔，我父亲的那一代人肯定会更加崇拜信仰。而我这一代的人可能会稍微疏远一些，但与在城市中长大的年轻一代相比，我们仍然更受信仰吸引。特别是在互联网蓬勃发展之后，人们了解到外国文化以及全球范围内不同的信仰，这促使他们质疑我们的体系，所以现在有人决定不按照传统进行火葬。
年轻一代中存在这种不和谐的情况，我觉得有点害怕，因为我们的文化已经存在了几个世纪，缓慢的变革是好的，但这种快速的变革有点吓人。
也许我只是有偏见，因为我来自农村，从小就在仪式中长大，并且热爱传统。但我相信这些仪式有很多好处，它们以一种健康的方式帮助你处理悲伤。你不会回避死亡，在被迫去面对它的时候，看到尸体燃烧会让你意识到它只是肉体。
这一切都可以帮助你更加积极地去理解死亡是一种解脱。在人离去后，你能为逝者做的就是帮助他们到达更好的地方，并让他们尽快得到重生。
Raj
