巴西的 Salgados
INTERVIEW
Nothing says “home” to a Brazilian like salgados, the savory fried snacks that no family get-together or kid’s birthday party would be complete without. In this interview, DKU sophomore Giulia de Cristofaro tells us all about this quintessential Brazilian comfort food.
热情国度巴西好像有数不清的美女和美食，而零食也是巴西人生活中绝不可或缺的一部分。他们天天吃零嘴的原因是什么呢？吃了零食又是怎么保持身材的呢？孔杰琳将会讲述她与巴西零食salgado的趣事。
Austin
Austin: Can you explain your family background?
你可以介绍一下你的家庭背景吗？
Giulia: My father is Italian and my mother is Brazilian, so we grew up in this combined cultural household. My mother tongues are both Italian and Portuguese. My dad always valued learning languages and living in different places so he made sure my brothers and I got a global education and became acquainted with cultures outside of Brazil. Ever since I was young we’ve been moving, to Italy, to France, but we always came back to Brazil.
我爸爸是意大利人，妈妈是巴西人，所以我是在多元文化的家庭背景下长大的,意大利语和葡萄牙语都是我的母语。我爸爸一直很重视我的语言学习，以及在世界各地生活的经历，他希望我和我哥哥、弟弟们能接受国际化教育，去熟悉巴西以外的文化。从我有记忆开始，我们就一直在搬家。我们到过意大利和法国，但我们最终总是会回到巴西。
Giulia
Austin: So is there something that you strongly associate with Brazil?
提到巴西，你会想到什么好吃的吗？
Giulia: There’s this type of food called salgado. They’re little foods usually eaten at parties, especially children’s birthday parties. We also eat them between lunch and dinner, or some people won’t even have dinner and just have the afternoon lanchinho and eat salgados. Pão de Queijo is a well-known type of salgado, they’re these cheese balls made small or big.
我们有一种好吃的零食叫salgado， 它是一种我们在聚会上吃的小零食，尤其是在孩子们的生日聚会上。我们一般会在午餐和晚餐之间吃Salgado，有些人甚至不吃晚餐，只吃下午的lanchinho和salgado。Pão de queijou也是一种有名的salgado，它们是一种金黄的芝士球点心，有大也有小。
Giulia
Pão de Queijo
Austin
Austin: So it’s like a bunch of little foods, right?
所以它就像是一堆小零食的总称？
Giulia: Yeah, there are a variety of salgados. There’s this fried one with chicken in it, coxinha, it’s shaped like a teardrop. There are also some variations with cheese inside too. Another kind are pastéis, which are half-moon shaped. The dough is thicker and is filled with corn kernels and cheese.
The flavor is different for each type of Salgado but they are all salty foods or snacks. So the pão de queijo (small cheese balls) taste like cheese while kibe is filled with beef and so tastes as such. Coxinha is chicken-filled, sometimes with cheese and other times without.
是的，我们有各种各样的salgado， 有一种裹着鸡肉的油炸salgado叫coxinha，它长得就像一滴眼泪一样。各种Salgado里面塞的奶酪也不太一样。还有一种是月牙形状的， 它的面团更厚，里面还塞满了玉米粒和奶酪。
不同salgados的味道也不太一样，但他们一般都是咸鲜口的小零食。像pão de queijo芝士球就是纯芝士的味道，而coxinha和kibe则是鸡肉味和牛肉味的，因为他们的内馅儿填的就是鸡肉和牛肉。
Giulia
Coxinha
Austin
Austin: Got it, so just to help us imagine, there’s like little fried chicken fritters, and you mentioned some cheese balls…
明白了，让我们想象一下哈，有的像炸鸡小饼，还有你说的那些奶酪球……
Giulia: Yeah, those are the most traditional ones. What I’ve come to understand is that certain salgados are associated with different states. My state, Minas Gerais, is famous for its cheese and dairy products. So we really enjoy our Pão de Queijo, it’s something unique to us. Last week I was having breakfast with some friends who are also from Minas Gerais and at the same instant, all of us said “oh some pão de queijo sounds so good right now!” All the other Brazilians were like, “wow of course you guys want to eat pão de queijo, you’re from Minas.”
嗯，那些是最传统的。我后来也逐渐发现不同州的salgado也太一样。我所在的米纳斯吉拉斯州的乳制品很有名，所以我们特别爱吃的 pão de queijo，因为我们这儿产的pão de queijo芝士球的味道是独一无二的。上周我和一些同乡的朋友们一起吃早餐，所有人都说：“诶，现在真该来点pão de queijo！” 而别的州的人见我们都会说，“害，你们当然想吃 pão de queijo，毕竟你们来自米纳斯呀。”
Giulia
Austin
Austin: I see, so what you’re saying is that there are many different types, but how they’re eaten or which ones you prefer might depend on the region you’re from. Does that mean people from Minas Gerais will be more particular about pão de queijo?
原来是这样啊，所以你想说的是salgado有很多不同种类，但你怎么吃、吃哪种可能取决于你来自哪个地方。那这是不是意味着米纳斯吉拉斯州的人们会对 pão de Queijo有更高的要求呢？
Giulia: Yeah, I think there are more companies that make pão de queijo that are based here. We eat it a lot more.
没错，我们那儿有更多做 pão de queijo芝士球的公司，所以我们经常吃这个。
Giulia
Austin
Austin: You mentioned an association with childhood too, at birthday parties and school cafeterias. Could you share some of your earliest memories of salgados?
你刚才提到了salgado和童年的一些联系，比如你们会在生日派对和学校餐厅吃salgado。你能分享一些对于salgado最早的记忆吗？
Giulia: Typical Brazilian schools are different from the ones in the U.S. When you’re a kid, you begin classes at around 7:30am and finish classes at around 12:30. Around 9:30 to 10, you would have recess, and everybody has a morning snack. Your parents would usually either pack you food or give you money. I remember my mother giving me money and I would have to wait for my brothers in front of their classes. But I also had to rush because I didn’t want to get stuck in massive lines that would form with the upperclassmen. You choose what salgado you want and eat it in the cafeteria.
巴西的学校与美国的学校不同，我们早上 7:30 左右开始上课，中午12:30 左右放学。大概在9:30到10点之间，会有一段休息时间，这时候每个人都会吃点零食。一般你的父母要么给你打包吃的带到学校，要么给你钱让你自己去买。我记得当时我妈妈会给我钱，但我得在教室门外等我哥哥、弟弟下了课一起去。我们必须得抓紧时间，不然就会体验到“大排长龙”的痛苦。我们会买自己想吃的salgado，然后坐在餐厅里吃。
Giulia
Austin
Austin: So, like you said, salgados are unhealthy comfort foods, do parents worry about their kids’ health when eating these a lot?
你说过salgado是不健康的垃圾食品，如果孩子们在学校吃很多salgado，父母会担心他们的健康吗？
Giulia: I think it’s cultural in that sense. Of course you won’t let your kid eat fried food every day. And not every single salgado is fried. In Brazil one of the “traditional” breakfast components is black coffee with buttered toast. So if you don’t have butter or bread, pão de queijo would be a good substitute. It’s baked, not fried, so it’s not too unhealthy. Salgado is more of a snack, so you’re not making an entire meal out of it, it’s not like having pizza where your whole meal is unhealthy.
这还是得看情况。我觉得我们文化里对垃圾食品的认识可能还不太一样。但是家长肯定不会让孩子每天都吃油炸食品啦，而且并不是所有salgado都是油炸的。巴西的传统早餐是黑咖啡配黄油吐司，所以如果你不吃黄油或面包，把pão de queijo芝士球当早餐会是个不错的选择。它是烤的，不是油炸的，所以也不算那么不健康。Salgado 更像是一种小吃，而不是一顿饭，这跟量很足的披萨不一样，如果吃披萨的话，可能你整顿饭都不太健康。
Giulia
不同品种的salgados – https://thundergunbrazil.wordpress.com/2013/08/15/salgados-and-brazilian-coffee/
Austin
Austin: Got it, so I wanted to go back to the scene where you described being a little kid and wanting to be at the front of the line to select your favorite salgado. Which kind was your favorite when you were a kid?
明白了。回到你小时候站在队伍最前面挑选salgado的话题，你小时候最喜欢哪一种salgado呢？
Giulia: I almost always just got the normal pão de queijo, but some days I would venture out and get the fancy kind. A lot of kids stuck to the mini pizzas. Some people would get enrolados, a kind of baked bread filled with cheese and ham. Coxinha was also pretty popular. It usually depended on the parents and how much money they had.
我吃的几乎都是普通的pão de queijo，但有时我会挑战一些花里胡哨的。很多孩子都喜欢吃一种迷你披萨，有些人喜欢 enrolados（一种装满奶酪和火腿的烤面包），coxinha也很受欢迎。我们买什么通常取决于兜里有多少钱。
Giulia
Enrolados – https://guiame.com.br/vida-estilo/gastronomia/pizza-enrolada-1.html
Austin
Austin: Are there any people you particularly associate with salgados?
一提起Salgado,你会想起什么人吗？
Giulia: Oh, my aunt for sure. Her mom and my grandma are very close, so every week she wants the whole family to get together and eat. Especially with the pandemic, it’s harder to see people, so she’s always planning lanchinhos, she’d often say “oh come to my house today!” My baby cousin was born a month ago, so my aunt of course was like “oh, we gotta have a lanchinho there!” It’s a great time because there’s good food and good company.
那当然是我的阿姨。她妈妈和我奶奶关系很亲，她希望全家人每周都能聚在一起吃饭。在疫情期间，团聚变得更难了，所以她一直在筹划着lanchinho。她经常说就跟我们说：“嘿，今天来我家吧！”
我的小表妹一个月前出生了，我的阿姨就催着赶着说：“哎，我们赶紧一起吃一顿lanchinho！”大家都很开心，因为又有好吃的，又能和家人团聚在一起。
Giulia
Austin
Austin: Can you explain what lanchinho means?
你能解释一下 lanchinho 是什么意思吗？
Giulia: So lanche is just the name, we put -inho in things as a diminutive, so lanchinho means “little lunch,” it’s a cute way to call it. You could use -inho on names too, it’s an endearing term.
lanche指的是“午餐”这个词，-inho 是一个词尾，所以lanchinho的意思是“小午餐”。其实，很多名词加上-inho就会变成一种很可爱的叫法。在名字里加上-inho，就变成了一个可爱的昵称。
Giulia
Lanchinhos
Austin
Austin: Since your aunt is always the one organizing these events, is she always making these salgados? Or buying them?
既然你的阿姨经常张罗这些活动，那她会自己亲自动手做salgado吗？还是就是去街上买呢？
Giulia: My aunt makes them. Part of the fun is bringing the whole family together to make the food, especially the sweet snacks.
都是自己做的！这些活动的乐趣就在于全家人在一起做吃的，尤其是做甜食。
Giulia
Austin
Austin: Got it, so the preparation process becomes a social activity as well. It’s like rolling dumplings in Chinese culture.
哦所以做吃的这件事也是有人情味的， 就像中国文化里的包饺子。
One thing I find interesting about food culture is that some people are very particular about certain things. Is there a common preference or a certain way of eating salgados or specifically pão de queijo?
我发现饮食文化里有个很有趣的事，有些人对吃法很有讲究，salgado有没有什么特别的吃法？
Giulia: No, you can eat it however you like. If you want to eat it with a knife, go for it! Usually we just eat it with our hands since it’s a finger food.
这倒没有，你想怎么吃就怎么吃。如果你想用刀切着吃，当然可以！但一般我们就用手拿着吃。
Giulia
Austin
Austin: Do you have any memorable moments where salgados were being eaten?
在吃Salgado的时候，你有什么难忘的瞬间吗？
Giulia: I think I mostly associate salgados with gatherings. In Brazil, they’re often a must-have at birthday parties, even if you’re older. For events, you can buy salgados in “party kits.” They usually come in tray-like boxes and we will order about 200 or 300 of them.
提到Salgado，我一般想到的是聚会。在巴西，这些聚会主要指的是一些少不了的生日派对，哪怕你已经是大人了也得办。这种时候我们会订“派对份”的salgado。它们通常装在托盘一样的盒子里，我们一下要订两三百份呢。
Alongside the trays of salgados, there will also be a huge spread of sweets on the cake table. However, unlike salgados, you can’t just eat them whenever you want at a party. You can only have the sweets after everyone sings happy birthday because during the party, friends and family will take pictures with the birthday person in front of the cake table. It can get messy very quickly when everyone “attacks” the table to get their favorite sweets. One of my birthday parties was like that as we had three separate sweets tables so it was easy to steal some. But there were these animator people trying to distract the kids from eating the sweets before they’re supposed to. In Brazil, you hire these adults, these “animator people,” usually from a professional company, that will entertain and supervise the children at parties. They often bring a trampoline, maybe organize some games like tug-of-war or hide-and-seek, and clean up after the party. They’ll dress up too, like superheros or Disney characters.
除了这些盘装salgado，蛋糕桌上还会放一大堆糖果。不过，这些糖果不是想吃就吃的，你必须要在唱完生日歌之后才能吃糖，因为家人朋友们在派对上要给蛋糕桌前的寿星照相。一旦每个人都去抢自己想要的糖果，场面可能很快就会变得十分混乱。有一次我生日就是这么乱糟糟的，因为当时分开摆了三桌糖果，小孩们很容易就能提前偷拿。
但是我们会让一些“派对演员”来分散小朋友的注意力，让他们不要偷吃糖果。在巴西，我们经常会请一些“派对演员”来活跃气氛，一般都是找专业派对公司的成年演员，他们会逗孩子玩，也会看住这些小孩（不让他们偷吃糖果）。他们常常会带一个蹦床，还可能会组织拔河、捉迷藏之类的游戏，并且在聚会结束后清理场地。他们有时也会专门打扮成超级英雄或者迪士尼的角色。
Giulia
Children’s birthday party
Animator people dressed as Spiderman
Giulia: After singing happy birthday we will sing “com quem sera?” which means “who are you gonna marry?” Do you have anything like that in America?
唱完生日快乐之后我们会唱“谁会和谁在一起？”，意思其实就是“你会和谁结婚？”
我其实比较好奇——你们美国也会有这样的东西吗？
Giulia
Austin
Austin: No, can you explain that more?
这我没听说过诶，你可以多讲讲吗？
Giulia: That’s the best part of a birthday! Well it’s the worst for the person who’s celebrating their birthday. Especially for me, since my brothers and I (we’re triplets) all share the same birthday. Our parties were huge.
那可是生日派对里最劲爆的部分！对于寿星来说，那可能是最“社死”的一趴。特别是对我来说，因为我哥哥和弟弟和我（我们是三胞胎）的生日在同一天，所以我们的聚会规模很大，也就是说，会有很多客人来玩。
Imagine you’re young, you have a crush and you don’t want anyone to know. You stand in front of your friends and family as they sing happy birthday followed by ‘com quem sera’, which goes like “who is it gonna be, who is it gonna be, that so and so is going to marry?” Then, your close friends—who probably know who your crush is—will scream out their name.
想象一下当你还小的时候，你有一个暗恋的人，但你不想让别人知道。你站在你的朋友和家人面前，他们唱完生日歌就开始唱“谁会和谁在一起”，这首歌歌词大概是“会是谁呢，会是谁呢，和你结婚的会是谁呢~”然后，你的好朋友——他们很可能知道你暗恋的是谁——就会把名字喊出来。
As you run and hide from embarrassment, your crush, who was just called out in front of more than a hundred people, will just stand there awkwardly. And everyone would finish off the song with “it will depend, it will depend, if they will want to~!”
然后你会尴尬地要命，甚至想找个地缝赶紧躲起来，而你暗恋的人刚刚在一百多人面前被叫了名字，却只能僵在一旁，傻愣愣看着所有人唱完这首歌——他们唱着：“看情况，看情况，看他们愿不愿意！”
When that’s all done we can finally eat the sweets. I remember very clearly that my cousins and I would strategically place ourselves around the sweets table during happy birthday songs so that we could get the sweets we wanted as soon as the song ended. We would wait for the animator person to say “ok, you can attack!” and the sweets would be gone in a matter of minutes.
这些东西都搞完了之后，我们就终于可以吃糖了。我记得很清楚，唱生日歌的时候我和我的表弟表妹会战术性地站在糖果桌周围，这样歌一唱完我们就能马上抢到想要的糖。等派对演员说完：“好了，你们可以吃糖了！”
然后——桌面上的糖果就会表演一场“原地消失术”，分分钟给你消失不见。
Giulia
Austin
Austin: Wow, you have a lot of childhood stories of salgados! Were there any moments involving salgados that made you realize you’re getting older and growing up?
哇！看来你有不少关于Salgado的童年记忆嘛！有没有哪些有关Salgado的时刻让你感觉到自己真正长大了？
Giulia: Yeah, I guess the first thing you notice as you get older is that the salgados are small, haha. Like I can’t just eat two of them and be full. Also the fact that I can make them on my own now, especially since I’m currently in Brazil. When I was studying in Switzerland I could barely find any of the ingredients to make good salgados.
有的。在长大的过程中，我最能注意到的事是我在变大，而Salgado在变小，哈哈。我不像小时候一样只吃两个就饱了。
还有就是我终于可以自己做Salgado了，尤其是现在，因为我就在巴西。我记得当时我在瑞士上学的时候，根本就找不到合适的食材来做Salgado。
Another big difference is as you get older you don’t have huge birthday parties anymore, with the whole spectacle, sweets and animator people. Salgados become less and less important and usually are bought instead of made at home.
还有件和小时候很不一样的事情，就是我大了一点之后，家里就再也不会举行那么大的生日派对了，当然也就再也没有派对上那些壮观的糖果和派对演员交织的景象了。后来家里人也不怎么做Salgado了，因为我们一般都在街上买；Salgado在我们的生活中好像变得越来越不重要了。
Giulia
Austin
Austin: Right, but you also mentioned that they’re common in all informal gatherings right?
确实。但是你也提到它们在所有家常聚会上都很常见，是不是？
Giulia: Oh yeah, yeah, there are stores all over the place for salgados. We have them in any situation.
哦对，对，到处都有卖Salgado的店，我们随时都能买。
Giulia
Austin
Austin: Cool, you’ve painted a vivid image in our minds here on what it was like growing up eating these and why you would look forward to them so much when you had been away from Brazil for so long. What types of cheese are commonly used in salgados?
了解了，你的讲述真是活灵活现！我们明白了吃着salgado长大是什么感觉，还有你就算离开巴西很久之后为什么会想念它。对了，我还想问问Salgado里面一般用的是哪种奶酪？
Giulia: Cheese from my state is called queijo minas, we use that the most. And we don’t go light on them! Which is weird right, because it contradicts the stereotype that in Brazil, everyone is skinny or super fit when we also enjoy all these greasy and unhealthy foods.
我们州用的奶酪叫作米纳斯奶酪，这是我们用的最多的是一种。而且我们不做清淡的口味！很奇怪吧，我们喜欢这种不健康的油腻食物，这不符合巴西人身材都很好的刻板印象。
Giulia
米纳斯奶酪 Queijo minas https://www.sabornamesa.com.br/outras-receitas/queijo-minas-frescal-caseiro
Austin
Austin: If people are really obsessed with trying to stay skinny and fit, is there a huge struggle in making healthy food choices?
如果人们痴迷于保持好身材，在选择吃什么才健康的时候会不会有很大的心理斗争呢？
Giulia: Skinny and fit culture is very prominent here. They’ve made healthy alternatives for almost everything. Stores have different sections and foods are cooked differently just for that. There’s a massive variety of buffets specifically for people who are trying to keep fit.
追求身材的文化在巴西是主流的，巴西人已经做出了几乎所有东西的健康替代品，商店里不同的区域卖的吃的做法都不一样，还有很多种专门为想要保持身材的人设计的快餐。
Giulia
Austin
Austin: So if I were a Brazilian trying to stay thin, would I eat salgados? Even if I were at a party?
那如果我想要保持身材，就算在派对上，我还会吃Salgado吗？
Giulia: If you’re at a party, then sure! Here we say “there’s no use going to the movies if you’re not going to have popcorn.” It’s similar to another song we sing at birthdays, which goes “I forgot to bring the good gift, I just came to eat!” It’s a thing in Brazil to take home salgados and sweets after a party. Everyone will have a plate full of them in their hands.
如果是在派对上的话，那当然会吃！我们这儿的人会跟你说“你去电影院不吃爆米花，等于白去了”。这其实也有点像我们生日派对上会唱的另一首歌：“我两手空空来，我酒足饭饱归！”所以巴西人就是很爱美食，很爱吃，也很能吃。一般派对结束之后呢，带点Salgado和糖果回家是我们巴西人的习惯，所以派对后，你会看到每个人揣着满盘的东西离开。
Giulia
Austin
Austin: It sounds like part of the fun is not just having all these delicious foods and celebration, but also, getting to take home a bunch of things.
听起来派对的乐趣不只在于这些享受美食和庆祝活动，也在于带着一堆东西回家。
Giulia: Oh definitely! It’s not considered impolite at all. Usually at parties kids will bring home a goodie bag, we call them lembrancinha. It means “little memory.” It’ll be cute things like a pencil case or a fish in a bag.
哦当然啦！这一点都不失礼。一般参加派对的孩子们都会拿着一个礼品袋回家，我们称之为“派对回忆礼袋”。主人家一般会装些很可爱的小东西在袋子里面，像是铅笔盒或者一条可爱小鱼之类的。
Giulia
派对回忆礼袋 – Goodie bag at children’s parties
Austin
Austin: Hearing all the little snacks you mentioned together, it creates this impression of abundance and variety.
听你讲了这么多小零食、小玩意儿，真让我觉得眼花缭乱呀，巴西人真是太会吃、太会玩了！
Giulia: Yeah in Brazil we like to do everything the way we do our salgados, in a fun, extravagant way.
对，在巴西我们像对待salgado一样生活，用一种有趣的、随心所欲的方式做所有的事。
英文编辑 English Editors | Erica Ham Faith Ho Austin Woerner
中文翻译和编辑 Translators and Chinese Editors |
孙骥远 何思樾 王若菡 张家祺 何思畅
排版 Layout | 何思樾
Giulia
Giulia de Cristofaro is a rising junior, studying Political Economy at Duke Kunshan University. She is both Brazilian and Italian and, in her free time, she enjoys spending time with friends and playing volleyball.
Giulia de Cristofaro (孔杰琳) 是昆山杜克大学政治经济学专业的大二学生。她的文化背景非常多元，她具有巴西和意大利双国籍，也曾在多个国家留学访问。她闲暇时喜欢和朋友一起放松，一起打排球。
Austin Woerner teaches English and creative writing at DKU. He is the coordinator for the Intersections project.
Austin Woerner (温侯廷）是DKU英语和创意写作课程的教授，也是《交集》项目的创始人。
