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Ghofran Ahmed

Posted by on March 25, 2016

The following is an abridged transcript of interviews conducted October 28, November 3, and November 17, 2015 with Ghofran, a young Iraqi woman originally from Baghdad. As sectarianism and violence during the American occupation worsened, Ghofran was forced to leave her Iraqi home in 2007. She moved in Sahnaya, Syria and later to Beirut, Lebanon for one and four years, respectively, before coming to the United States.

Her story provides insight into the realities on the ground in these three unique areas in the Middle East. From fleeing crossfire of sectarian violence in Iraq, to finding a welcoming safe-haven in Syria, to tackling a difficult period of instability in Lebanon, her experiences lend a personal perspective into the social, cultural and political climate for each place and time. Now residing in Durham, N.C., Ghofran lives with her husband and two children.

By: SANDY ALKOUTAMI and PETER COOKE  

SANDY: I’d like to begin with your childhood. Your family, friends, when you were born. Tell me about growing up.

GHOFRAN: I was born in 1980 in January 6. It was the Army National Day, so a proper holiday. My mother, before she was married, worked for the Central Iraqi Bank. After she got married, she stopped working. My father worked as an agricultural engineer. I was the oldest. After a year, my brother was born. We fought. I was tidy and he was a mess. But there were always good times! I mean, we played together of course… What was the question again?

SANDY: What was the name of your school? 

GHOFRAN: The Asma’i School. It wasn’t nice and my principal was so mean. From when I was younger, something happened. I was so shy and always scared. The teachers and the adults would sit inside and all the kids, old and small, would run and play and fight outside. There wasn’t any supervising during these times. One time a younger told the principal that I was doing something wrong. The principal held me by the neck and pulled me up. [2:44]  I couldn’t talk, I would only cry. Then there was a bad relationship between the principal and my mother. I finished elementary and then I went to middle school. It was called Zeina. I finished 3 years, and we had always lived in the same place. Then I went to an early community college and the war started. [3:31] The drama started.

SANDY: In what year was this?

GHOFRAN: I believe it was 2003. I graduated in 2007.

PETER: College?

GHOFRAN: No, it was an early college. I received a diploma.

SANDY: Your specialty?

GHOFRAN: Math and science? I liked early college more than . I had friends that I still talk to today. I didn’t like having a lot of friends but I really liked my friends. But the last year was hard.

SANDY: 2007?

GHOFRAN: 2006 and 2007.

PETER: Why?

GHOFRAN: Because of sectarianism and fighting. My parents were also in one place, and I stayed in another to finish my college exams.

SANDY: Sadam was in power most of your life, correct? What was life under him like?

GHOFRAN: Well, my father was a simple man. Not involved in politics. And we were not a part of the Baath Party. [5:41] We were Sunni, not Shiite. We didn’t like the parties [political]. In fact, I was the only student in my school not affiliated with the Baath party. I didn’t know why or care. At home, we didn’t have picture of Sadam even though everyone had pictures of them up. Other people would and then they denied their love for him later. We never had those pictures… I mean, our life was simple. But never peaceful. There were always wars.

SANDY: Were there any tensions or arguments between you and your friends affiliated with the party?

GHOFRAN: [6:42] No, no. Absolutely not. Not at all.

SANDY: Could you tell who was Sunni or Shia?

GHOFRAN: No, not at all. We would have so many friends of all different religions, even Christians. We had no clue who was what religion. Even my husband in college could tell who was Sunni or Shia or Christian.

PETER: Did the government treat you differently as a Sunni?

GHOFRAN: No, he was fair. Sadam was fair at first… Even Tarek Aziz was a Christian! [Foreign Minister of Iraq; he was the negotiator for Sadam; put in prison by US]

SANDY: Would you say that people liked Sadam?

GHOFRAN: The Iraqi people are naturally hard. We never expected the Shia to be so close to Iran. There was safety at one point, though. But very little loyalty.

SANDY: What do you mean by drama, earlier? What did you notice.

GHOFRAN: It was depressing. We could see occupation. We couldn’t tell what was better. The state was unstable. The government was cracked. The army was lost. Then militias formed with criminals making them up.

PETER: Would you see the American army?

GHOFRAN: All the time. So much. They would enter our houses and search us all the time.

SANDY: What did people think about the Americans?

GHOFRAN: There were some people rejected the idea of Americans in Iraq. Some people were happy that Sadam was over. They didn’t care who followed, whether it was the Americans or not.

SANDY: Was your family?

GHOFRAN: No. Of course not. It wasn’t about Sadam. It was about occupation.

SANDY: When the American army came,

GHOFRAN: We were so young, we couldn’t calculate these things. I was in middle school. When we got older, we started noticing big differences in our country. We stopped asking people “hello?” We asked each other where we were from instead. [Where people are from indicates, typically, what religion they are.] When Sadam left, elections occurred so roads were blocked. My cousin came and stayed with us because she was pregnant and wanted access to a hospital. My mother and I took her and to the doctor. I waited in the reception area. Someone sat next to me and asked if I was married. I told her I was a student. Then she asked me “Shinoo?” Which meant whether I was Sunni or Shia. I told her Sunni. She made a face of disappointment. This was so shocking. This feeling people had about others. Sadam had suppressed this. I believe Shias were carrying this feeling inside of them for many years. It’s just wrong and stupid. [14:10] This was my first experience of changing nationalism in Iraq. I cried. This was in 2004.

SANDY: [16:30] You told me about a time you lived away from your parents?

GHOFRAN: Yes, in 2006. For one month. I lived with my uncle–his wife is Shia.

SANDY: So what made 2006 so bad?

GHOFRAN: Hate was always present but it finally became loud. People were no longer afraid to hate. Shia Iraqis began killing over identity. Snipers would kill people from all over. We started making doors in the back of the house to escape if we needed to. We even started seeking help from Americans to help protect us from them…

SANDY: So you were scared of the American Army?

GHOFRAN: Yes… We were outside of Baghdad for most of the time it was bad… But we moved back and forth… [1:30] My friends and I would be in danger. We would watch bombs go off and people get hurt and die…  We didn’t realize who was behind the killings at first, but we eventually found out it was the government. [3:50] They would kidnap children and call the parents and torture them with the sound of their voices… The government had so much money, millions, and it was never spent on Iraq. A school, bridge, museum was never built… [5:40] A lot of people disappeared. We never knew where they went.

We lived in an unfinished house. Once there was a lot of kidnapping and torture, we decided to leave. Many members of my family were tortured and killed. The question about death surrounded how quick it was… We only asked about death in hopes that it came quickly–we feared anyone would be tortured instead.

SANDY: [20:30] So you were ready to leave in 2006? Who left?

GHOFRAN: I left with my father and mother and brother.

SANDY: Did you think you would come back?

GHOFRAN: To be honest, I cried. I didn’t want to leave and neither did my father. But my mother did. My father kept going back and forth…

PETER: So can you maybe speak a little about 2006, and the preparations to leave for Syria/ Damascus…

GHOFRAN: 2006 was the time period that we began to think about getting out of Iraq. 2007 we left Baghdad. It was hard to leave Baghdad and our lives there, but we had considered all options: My studies, my father’s work, so we began thinking about leaving more and more, and in 2007, we finally left. I returned for a little, because of my final exams. There was a process to leave, but it was rather simple. In the beginning of 2007, we began to gather travel documents, passports and the like.

PETER: And did it take awhile to obtain those documents?

GHOFRAN: About 5 months. There were a lot of people trying to leave, so the wait took a while.

PETER: So you arrive in Syria, where did you live?

Ghofran: In Sahnaya, for a year and then with my some of my aunts. There was a big car because of  size of our group. We took it and went to live in my aunt’s house.

        Also food was an issue. The UN was not open, so we didn’t have access to its food or resources. After, we began to rent an apartment, and this apartment was extremely small.

PETER: So you stayed in this apartment for 3 years.

GHOFRAN: Not the small one, the bigger one.

PETER: With all the rats?

GHOFRAN: Yep, with the rats (laughter). We killed so many, so many that there weren’t any rats left in Syria.

PETER: So the conditions weren’t perfect…

GHOFRAN: But we were happy, everything was good. And we got accustomed to the place, everything was nice in Syria.

SANDY: How was your daily life in Syria? You’d finished your studies, so did you take more classes, work…

GHOFRAN: The UN started many initiatives. After my marriage, there were a lot of UN centers in Syria for refugees. Centers for English, swimming, poetry gatherings… so many things. But I never really went.

SANDY: So when was your marriage…

GHOFRAN: My husband moved to Syria in 2001. His situation was really difficult in Syria. He worked a lot and stayed in the country. After that, he moved in Lebanon. He settled in Lebanon where he found work, so he stayed there. The meeting place for us was Syria. Coming there from Iraq was easy due to its proximity. So when we eventually moved to Syria, we were there together.  

SANDY: In Syria

GHOFRAN: Yes, in Syria. Our wedding was in the tenth month of 2008, so we had been living in Syria for about a year… about that, yea. About a year a two months

PETER: In Damascus?

GHOFRAN: Yea, no, in Sahnaya, on the outskirts of Damascus.

SANDY: [7:55] Do you think your life in Syria was really different from your life in Iraq before the problems in Iraq?

GHOFRAN: The difference was that there was progress, with small things. There was always electricity. In Iraq there wasn’t always electricity; The day was split- From 3-6, there was no electricity and it turned on from 6 to 11.  So there weren’t electricity problems (in Syria), but there were issues with the water, but we considered it a minor issue…. What else? There were really popular markets, inexpensive and really nice. There was Sook Loob and Sook Asim, which we went to a lot, it was super popular. Syria was great, its simplicity, food, everything was nice… And the Hamadiyah (market) was also beautiful.

PETER: And you would go downtown a lot?

GHOFRAN: Yea, not all the time, but on occasion. Especially for Ramadan

SANDY: If you asked someone here they would never think these are images from the Middle East… One often thinks of the desert, not the ocean or the mountains.

GHOFRAN: Yes, Syria’s beautiful, the land… the public spaces, the olive trees.

PETER: [5:05] While living in Syria, did you ever feel as if you were a refugee?

GHOFRAN: No, not in Syria. I think it was because the Syrians are simple people. I never felt homesick. Everyone liked to help eachother out, and help us.

SANDY: [6:20] In Sahnaya, were there a lot of Iraqis living near you?

GHOFRAN: Yea a bunch. Sahnaya actually is predominantly a Christian area. And yes, there were a lot of Iraqis living around us.

PETER: Meaning Iraqi refugees?

GHOFRAN: Actually we weren’t really refugees. There wasn’t that description for us.

PETER: So were these Iraqis Christians?

GHOFRAN: To tell you the truth, we didn’t really know. The only way that we knew people in Sahnaya were Christians was because they spoke both Assyrian and Arabic. This diversity in Syria was nice.

PETER: [10:00] Did you have any family members who stayed in Iraq?

GHOFRAN: Many, my father’s side , my uncles, some cousins. For some people change is really difficult, and some didn’t want to leave despite the difficulties

PETER: And while in Syria, did you speak with them?

GHOFRAN: [10:40] Of course I did. My cousin was my brother’s best friend. He was killed, however. And I remember being so upset. The last time he called me, I was asleep so I didn’t answer. When I found out he was killed shortly after, I was mentally disturbed for a while. I still get so upset that I didn’t answer his last phone call. It would have been the last time I talk to him.

PETER: [11:30] Were you staying up to date on the events of the war in Iraq from your friends and family living there?

GHOFRAN: Of course, we were in conversation with all of them. My father would go back and forth, from Syria to Iraq. We would go for 3-4 months, and return for a couple weeks at a time.

SANDY: So your sisters are younger than you… did they go to school in Syria after you moved?

GHOFRAN: Yes.

PETER: Did the others know you were Iraqi

GHOFRAN: Yes.

SANDY: But there weren’t ever any issues…

GHOFRAN: No, never. They didn’t feel as if they were any different. You know the dialect is different…

SANDY: That’s nice that they never felt like outsiders.

GHOFRAN: Never… never. But there’s a perception that Iraqis have lots of money, so the problems we had were like when riding a taxi, which was tough.

PETER: Did you begin speaking with some Syrian dialect?

GHOFRAN: Of course, but I like the dialect. We watched a lot of Syrian TV, new and old stuff, everything. In particular, I loved “Ayaam Shamia” (Damascus days),

SANDY: [17:09] So what’s your favorite memory of Syria?

GHOFRAN: Everything is Syria was great, maybe the best part being the time of my engagement, but the whole time there was pleasant.

PETER: [18:55] And after your time there, you left for Beirut…

GHOFRAN: Yep, to exile and solitary confinement (laughter). We left for Beirut, I thought I would still be close to family, but in reality I was really far. Maybe in the US you can come and go to different states as you please, but traveling between Syria and Lebanon is tough. Entering Lebanon initially was difficult.

Lebanon in general was difficult, it’s very expensive. The Lebanese people are really different from Syrians. There’s no organization or system. There’s Hezbollah, Harakat Amal, and these many different groups. People are killed and no one makes a fuss about it. There’s killing in the streets.

The area I lived in was a popular neighborhood, close to the Sabra and Shatila camp. There was a long market-like street, and Sabra and Shatila was at the end of it. The place I lived in had a lot of tension, there were thugs with weapons in the markets, you could see bullets in the streets. Life was hard, generally there was no electricity

PETER: So you mentioned that in Syria, you didn’t feel like you were a refugee, but in Beirut, you felt…

GHOFRAN: Right, I felt different. I felt the harshness of the society, particularly with regards to my religion.

SANDY: [4:10] So did you have any friends in Lebanon?

GHOFRAN: No, never.

SANDY: So your life was boring for that time…

GHOFRAN: Boring, yes, super boring. I dono, I had relations with my relatives but that was about it.

SANDY: [5:05] And you never went back to Syria?

GHOFRAN: No, never. Returning was next to impossible…. We occasionally went downtown in Beirut which was entertaining, there were some small improvements.

PETER: Did you ever go to Sabra and Shatila?

GHOFRAN: Yea, a lot. There’s a really nice market there. Lots of Palestinians. It’s a crowded and popular place, but of course life there for the Palestinians is deplorable. They have rights, like to go to school and graduate with degrees, but everything has to be done within the camp. Lebanon is a terrible environment for them, many live in alleys and under buildings, it’s really terrible.

Also there was this one time when we got into a taxi with a Lebanese driver, who began speaking very harshly to us. He thought we were Syrians. He was so nasty. My husband couldn’t tolerate it. He told the driver that we were Iraqis, not Syrians, but there shouldn’t be a difference between the two. And the taxi driver instantly apologized, and completely changed the way he was treating us… it’s a strange world in that country.

PETER: [8:30] How many years did you spend in Lebanon

GHOFRAN: About 4 years

SANDY: So when did you come to America? How was that process like?

GHOFRAN: It was during Ramadan, we got a call to prepare our papers to come to America. We took a course about preparations, organizations, and getting ready to travel… We had so much stuff, we just left it all in Lebanon and left.

SANDY: Were you glad to leave?

GHOFRAN: Yes, but we were scared of what was waiting. We weren’t happy or sad. But to be honest, I was ready to leave Lebanon. On the plane, I knew I couldn’t come back for a while…

PETER: Was the traveling hard?

GHOFRAN: Yes, and lots of waiting. Hours in Turkey and Lebanon. From Turkey, we flew for 9 hours to America… We landed in New York. We spent that night in hotel and then traveled to North Carolina.

SANDY: Was it the first time you flew in a plane?

GHOFRAN: Yes! I was kind of scared, but my husband was very scared. Especially when we landed.

 

SANDY: [5:30] Did you feel different once you landed in the United States?

GHOFRAN: Honestly, I was just tired. I was pregnant and ready to be done traveling. But the organization was helpful… they helped us settle down and take care of us for many months. After two months, my husband found work. There were other Iraqis already here and they helped us find work. I started taking classes for English…

PETER: So did you stay in this house from the beginning of your arrival? Did you like it?

GHOFRAN: Oh yes… So much! It is so different from Lebanon. It has greenery, a nice area, and good space.

SANDY: [1:37] So did your husband work immediately?

GHOFRAN: No, we had to take English courses first with the organization. For the first three months, we took classes. At first, we didn’t benefit because we already had a background in English. We started with a new teacher who really taught us. But after a while, she left. I started getting more pregnant so I stopped going and eventually my husband found a job… I don’t like asking people for help, so I learned how to navigate and get around Durham on the buses alone. [4:30] There were a lot of people that welcomed us in the area. Our neighbors who stopped by in the first couple days and helped us settle in… This is different than living in the Arab world. Especially with electricity! When someone turns off the light here, I think the electricity is out for the day. This is what we are used to, coming from the Arab World!

SANDY: What was the hardest part of living in the US?

GHOFRAN: The language. Once you know a language of the host country, everything becomes a lot easier.

SANDY: Do you miss the Arab world?

GHOFRAN: Honestly, when I first came to the US, I did not even have time to think about that. I was pregnant, having a child, trying to settle in…

 

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